I step back, no more project leader. (Former Should we go on?)

[Michael Hartlef]

Hi folks :-\

Petr, I know I said wait till the end of November, but Francko said something and I need to raise my voice now. So....

I guess I have to make some noise again. A recent chat via email with Petr and now a post by Franko make me think twice if this project should be work on further. Should we go on?

I know everyone here would love to work on the game. Being able to do it or not. But being able means not only that you should know your craft at least a little, but also have the time and motivation to do it. And I think that the last two (time/motivation) are the most important things. If you don't know something, you can try to learn. The internet is full of information that can be adapt to our project. Be it coding wise, be it art wise. There are so many tools that can be used, the choice is huge. I don't think I would be able to learn a new tool in that time and still fullfill my role here but hey, you are not me. You might make it.

I think some of us underestimated the work load that has to be done for it. What we want to work on is not a simple TickTackTo game. It will be a small game but something that should be payable and continuesly playable. So some effort should be put into this. I am 100% sure that you guys WANT to do it. But CAN YOU REALLY DO IT? Do you really have the time for it? Plus the motivation to push yourself through this? Number wise we should have enough people here.

Today, after I made another request I read from Francko...


Yes, I can help if I get time for that

Perfectly understandable from a personal view but not prductive for our project.

Coding wise we have Petr, Simone, Jason, Eros. Art wise we have me, Kent, Francko. We also have Michael. Eight people, normally that should be enough. But...

Now guys, please don't take this as an offend towards you. I just describe how I see our team and why I have my doubts that we make it.

About me: I think I do to many different things in this project. I try to organize, which I'm not happy how I have done it in the past. Everything still feels unorganized. I try to code two good sized parts, still at a beginning stage. I have to come up with a good amount of art like the other artists. I will have to provide music and sound effects, just like Kent does. I spend around 2-4 hours each day (reading, dicussing, coding, try to be creative) and still I have a feeling that I won't make it.

Francko: You still have to fight with your tools a lot, and you have a lot of other stuff going on. Your books, your own 3D tool, you want to learn how to code TB, you have a new relationship etc. I actually have my doubts if you have enough time for it. (the game ;) )

Kent: Well, only just recently you voiced yourself here much more. That is a good thing! But at the beginning I was saying to myself.... why is he participating? Only to make (a few) critics? Also knowing the past where you jumped ship fast to the next big thing and didn't concentrate long on something... well I hope you will be with this through the whole project. If not then I knwo that we won't make it art wise.

Petr: I know you are the master of TBGL and I'm sure you are working hard on the particles and the collision routines. I know that you could code the game alone. But I think that your university studies put you under such a pressure lately, that you won't have enough time for it.

Simone: You are the one I can't judge right now. You seem to work with Petr very good on the particles. But I don't know what I could expect from you next.

Eros: To busy man, to busy. I was hoping that you can take on the hiscore thingy and the multiplayer functions but I think you don't have enough time. thinBasic and real life is a big part of your time.

Jason: Very talented, seemed to be motivated like hell. But also a big talent to write in a unknown language with english words. Means, it is very hard to follow you sometimes and so it kinda distracts, demotivates. I get a feeling that all what you said should be thought about, but if we do it to such an extend, we are still discussing it the next 2 years.

Michael Clease: You promised a nice story and background, you delivered. Surprisingly you came up with a little concept for a glider. You overshot my expectations.

So, what do you think? Do you guys think that we can make it in time? Is it to early to ask such a question?

Michael

[Lionheart008]

Good morning dear michael:)

personal opinion: Good strike ! But not very fair, isn't it ;) ... you don't know me closer (also other guys here), but I have a lot of humour to save and handle things for me, they are important and have priorities for me... the game belongs to this topic list place 'three' after girl friend, dog and now "thinbasic" :) then real life... and my daily life... so you see it's important for me to work an this project...

a) all things I create here for the forum (models, tbgl examples, ideas, story background, inka 3d project and much more...) are only to understand the background of 'tbgl', take a lot of time for it the last weeks, you know that, also the most of other members here !, but it's not a full time job we take here... I have posted it some weeks before, not everybody can spend every day the same efforts to work on with the project...

b) I don't like to change a lot on my kind of working here with the game project, sorry, michael, I spend a lot of time here to learn, otherwise I am not on the right place... ???

c) Of course we can talk about such important "should we go on" things... but I think it's also important (for me) to take time to read all this stuff, concentrate into a new game development structure and don't forget, yesterday I came back from holiday... ! and it's not so bad that I have some difficulties with my 3d modeling (low-poly) to find the right way, everybody has its own little fight with the tools/application...

d) my question to the models/game objects belongs to the kind of modelling... I can create everything you want, but know it's new for me to build low polygon models... think new about creating little models... that's all;) I have seen in your formerly projects you worked a longer time (some years?) with low polygon objects and have good experience with it... sorry, not for me... it's new stuff for me...

e) basically I worked with 'cinema' and 'realsoft' with high polygon object, textured it and the still was ready... I have took part on some '3d graphic competition' with not so bad results for me, but now I create low-poly objects and learn a new language for it... ;) not so easy...

f) the decision to work here was free and I was curious... I have still a good feeling about running forward the project in time, but I have some breaks too, to get more power and new ideas... and living real life... other things are also important for me, I don't talk about it, you know what I mean with "family first" and after that the hobbies or professional work...

g) calm a little bit down:) for me it's everything ok here... critics are also welcome :D

see you, lionheart

[ErosOlmi]

Eros: To busy man, to busy. I was hoping that you can take on the hiscore thingy and the multiplayer functions but I think you don't have enough time. thinBasic and real life is a big part of your time.

Michael,

I like your pragmatic way. I can talk for myself only here.

My situation: ok, I'm quite busy but I can confidently say I can work and get hiscore web site and thinBasic functions able to send/receive games hiscores and I can work on multiplayer functions side BUT only for the LAN and not over internet.

Over internet things get quite complex due to router traversing and firewalls setup. I do not want to open a discussion here about how we can go to solve Internet gaming. Just to let you know in my company I'm in charge also of all network connections and I assure I'm quite an expert on that so I know what I'm talking about. We have more than 5 high speed connections, remote companies working in Terminal Server mode over VPN, security appliances costing a fortune just for intrusion prevention, more than 50 remotes shops controlled just in time on the fly, remote agents connecting continuously, multilevel mailing systems with hundred of local and remote users, ... and much more. To be able to create a game working over internet we need a co-ordination server that we do not have and that we are not able to create in the time window we have. This would be a complete full and complex project that we can think to open but this would be a complete different story.

Regarding networking functions, just yesterday evening I developed 2 new functions (will be present in next 1.7.x preview) that can simplify a lot networking: TCP_Notify and UDP_Notify. Those new functions will work in conjunction with UI module and with them you will say to TcpUdp module to fire a window events when something happen on a tcp/udp channel for example when data has been received or ready to be sent or when someone try to connect, ...

Regarding the game, we have to be pragmatic too and be honest with ourself first about what we can really create for the first stage. I think as soon as we will have a working model of the game with just the tracks and vehicles integration, we can decide the direction where to go. If tracks, vehicles, some little physics will be there, we can add all the next candy and really decide what we will want be present in the game.

Ciao
Eros

[Michael Hartlef]

As I see that I offended you guys, I say sorry and keep my mouth shut from now on. I had no right for the post above.

Sorry :-[

[ErosOlmi]

Michael,

for what it concern to me, you understood me the other way round: I'M VERY HAPPY ABOUT YOUR POST, really! And it is good (in my opinion) you came out now where we are still making decision so your post can give a concrete direction. I repeat, I'm very happy and not offended AT ALL!

I 100% prefer your pragmatic way rather than too many words and too much theory.
Just placed my karma point for your post.

Ciao
Eros

[ISAWHIM]

I didn't find it out of line... (Well, nothing rash was said.)

You are the project leader, and it is your duty to see where the project stands. (Over a wide area network, it takes a little more effort for collaboration.)

I think we may have enough to begin creating the shell, with no code. As I was trying to say in the other post. (In a few more words.)

Brevity is not something I am familiar with. (But I will work on it.)

Lionheart... You can make high-models, for use in some rendering artwork... We can turn those into low-poly models as needed. (We could use some concept art. Backdrop art for a "Shop". 3D weapons for the vehicles... high or low, we can suit it to taste. Just keep the OBJ and the actual project files handy.)

I will take a knock at an editor, since that does not need AI or collision detection or physics. (I sort-of need collision detection to begin to apply any more physics other than thrust and air-friction.)

I am still curious to see how the sky-box is developing.

[Simone]

Hi Michael,



Now guys, please don't take this as an offend towards you. I just describe how I see our team and why I have my doubts that we make it.


I am not offended by your opinion is right to trying to understand the situation. ;)




Simone: You are the one I can't judge right now. You seem to work with Petr very good on the particles. But I don't know what I could expect from you next.


Yes for now I'm trying to support Petr in Particle system and I know that seems that i could work only on this, because for my knowledge and experience is quite challenging (but very Fun), for this for now I'm concentrating only on particle because i try to do my best on this.

When we start to do this project I said:


This project is for me an opportunity to learn and improve


And i have a lot of things to learn.

my experience in the development of a game is not much and for this reason After Particle System (and sorry for this :-[) i don't know how much i can help the team on this project. but I can promise to always give the best to help Team in develop the game.

Ciao,
Simone

[Michael Hartlef]

g) calm a little bit down:) for me it's everything ok here... critics are also welcome :D


You're probably right. That is what I will do now. I'm the wrong person to lead this for several reasons and so
i'm taking the freedom to step back from the project leadership. Someone else has to do it. Personally I will calm down and take it easy now. Nobody got killed or injured. It's just a hobby.

Sorry again for stepping on your toes.


Over and out.

[Lionheart008]

hi michael...do me a favour... ::) cannot believe it... - wait please one day... sleep over it... that's not ok to quit all, when you have had stress with family affairs I can understand all such things very good, but try to separate it from this project... have a break or a little pause... it may help to see forward... we are a team here... :)

- take time and a big breath to see it also with patience... next day, next chance... nobody wanted that you are finishing here before the main part of the game development really starts and the rockets will fly I can imagine it when I see how good and engaged people here are in the team :)

- I say, we need you, michael, nobody else! :D, patience, think about you ideas for the game and your great work here and not running off !!! I don't like such things... ;)

best regards, Lionheart
-out now-

[Michael Clease]

I agree mike you should step down, you have to much going on elsewhere to worry about silly things like games.

We dont need a Project leader anymore

The design brief has been setup.
Time table of what and when, already setup.

the work has been done forget about it. You have done a great job.

Lets stop talking about things (I mean in general ) and start producing stuff.

My suggestion for you (Mike) is to do what you enjoy, life is too short.

ps. I have some more models coming your way ;) for the Mike factor.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi Mike,

thanks for your post.

Thanks for your opinion, I think you said it very politely and regarding me you was maybe even quite "soft".
You are right school pressure to me is higher than other years, higher than I expected. I have basically just weekends free and sometimes even that is not 100% true.

As you know, I am in a bit weird mood, but I want to help with this project. Simone is big help to me, which makes my job easier. Let's see situation on the end of month. I will try to put together the core of collision library before end of October to not brake Jason in his AI experiments.


Petr

[ISAWHIM]

I personally think you may have just come back to the table a little sooner than needed. (After your situation.) And possibly have taken on a little more than you can do all at once. (One man team.)

Take a break, play with music, and relax...

[ISAWHIM]

I will try to put together the core of collision library before end of October to not brake Jason in his AI experiments.

No rush... I would actually like to work on the AI with you... as opposed to doing that alone. You have a greater insight to the methods, while my knowledge is more towards the reaction of those methods. It is the physics portion that is at a natural limit, at the moment. (Can't calculate collision force/impact, without collision. I can pop-in some temp code, but I figured that would just slow me down. I have plenty I can still play with at the moment.)

I am creating a "SHELL", which I will submit soon, possibly tonight. It "Suggests", some of the ideas stated in the last post for the project design document. Which I will re-post, as requested.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi Jason,

I like the idea of cooperation on AI a lot, I was looking forward to work on it.
Even better if we will be two for the task, I will be happy to provide technical background info on collision methods.


Petr

[kryton9]

@Mike Hartlef Your Post is perfect for the position you lead as project leader. We won't let you step down. You have done a great job so far. I think the team is fine.

I personally laid back early as my part came later on and I only commented when I felt I had something new to add.

I know you are booked. I can do the cities if you want and gliders and you and Frank can send me anything you would like and I can put it into the cities where appropriate in looks. Music and sound effects are no problem either, but being creative as you are, just do what you feel like and assign me what all you want me to do as modeling and music and artwork. I am going to dedicate at least 10 hours a day in November barring any accident as I will be alone for that month, so plenty of free time.

All I need is to finalize track tile size and city tile size so that your editor can use it. I can then get to work.
You can concentrate on coding and do artwork, music and modeling as feel you have time and inspiration.

So take a deep breathe and keep doing the great job you have been doing so far!

[kryton9]

... I am still curious to see how the sky-box is developing.


I will make a sunny skybox since the design documents say clean air and water is the way of the world :)

I will make 2, one without city walls in the skybox and one with the city walls as part of the skybox to see how it looks.