View Full Version : Selecting "Nothing" in an empty control causes a hang/failure.
I had created a button, and a listbox (Dropdown style).
When the form loaded, the listbox was empty. (Unpopulated)
Clicking in it, seems to select "Nothing" down below, in the invisible dropdown menu. That makes the "Button" not function, and possibly any other item not function, on the first click.
EG, I had to click the button once, to pull the FOCUS/SELECT from the "Nothing", than the second click on the control button would work. Not sure if that is a wrapper issue... But if the LISTBOX is EMPTY, it should not be selecting "nothing". It should return focus to the form, or the last element with the focus/select.
Also...
You should list the % events for the controls. There is no use having "Constants" if you don't let us know what they are. I have found a few in the sample files, but the list is incomplete.
I would like to see the ONLINE HELP files contain all % constants for each control. Not to mention, it messes us up, when we create a constant with the same value or name.
If this is posted some place... Please, link me/us.
ErosOlmi
25-09-2008, 22:39
Hi ISAWHIM and welcome here.
I will start from your second indication: constants. I think you are right on this but you have to consider thinBasic is quite new and thinBasic is a free product. I think thinBasic has one of the best help material and examples around if you compare free projects not managed by foundations. But we can improve it a lot and we are always committed to do this. But it require time, time, time. If you have some spare one and would like to create some documentation, we will be happy to review it and add into thinBasic help material.
In any case consider that most of the thinBasic constants are almost the same as Microsoft ones so looking at Microsoft documentation at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa163284.aspx (for example) can help a lot.
Regarding the behave you mentioned, can you please provide a little example showing what you are saying. Few lines of code can save us a lot of time. In any case consider that UI (User Interface) module will change almost completely in next version because we have introduced Dialogs and Controls callbacks. The message pump method using WHILE/WEND loop with GetMessage inside will be deprecated.
If you want to have a preview of next thinBasic version using CallBacks, please send me a private message and I will send you a download url where to get it.
This is a partial list of the new things you will find on it: http://www.thinbasic.org/public/applications/thinbasic/onlyforyoureyes/HTML/index.html?version_1_7_0_0.htm
Ciao
Eros
Not sure what I need to be looking for there...
The event constants seem specific to thinBASIC, such as the constants which are used in the overall control of events in the samples.
These in the HELP FILE, listed for the UI sample... (The control button is way above, out of the event loop.)
%WM_Command
%WM_SYSCOMMAND
But in the LISTBOX sample... I found this...
%WM_INITDIALOG
Which has a note... "This is where controls should be added".
I was just wondering what other events exist... (I tried to use a label to view all events, but there are too many events. LOL, I saw 0 and 32 a lot.)
I also noticed that some controls use wParam, like buttons... but Listbox needs LoWrd(wParam) for the same identifier. (I was trying to make a listbox that changed another control, when it triggered a change-event. Took a little digging, but I got it.)
Here is a short version of the buggy code...
USES "UI"
Dim hDlg As DWORD
Dim Msg, wParam, lParam As DWORD
DIALOG New 0, "APPTITLE",-1,-1, 360, 255, _
%WS_POPUP Or _
%WS_VISIBLE Or _
%WS_CLIPCHILDREN Or _
%WS_CAPTION Or _
%WS_SYSMENU Or _
%WS_MINIMIZEBOX, _
0 To hDlg
CONTROL ADD BUTTON, hDlg, 1001, "Test", 5, 5, 70, 12
CONTROL ADD COMBOBOX, hDlg, 1002, , 5, 20, 120, 12, %CBS_DROPDOWNLIST 'Remove the CBS_DROP... and it works fine...
DIALOG SHOW MODELESS hDlg
While ISWINDOW(hDlg)
Msg = GETMESSAGE(hDlg, wParam, lParam)
Select Case Msg
Case %WM_Command
If wParam = 1001 Then MSGBOX 0, "Hello" 'Does not need LoWrd(wParam)??? But COMBOBOX does?
'If LoWrd(wParam) = 1002 Then MSGBOX 0, "Sup" 'Uncomment to see 6x fired events on one click???
Case %WM_SYSCOMMAND
If wParam = %SC_Close Then Exit While
Case Else
End Select
Wend
DIALOG End hDlg
Run the program... Click on the COMBOBOX... (See it selects "Nothing" down below...???)
Now if you click the button, or any location, there is no event that fires. Seems that the "Nothing" steals the next click/event.
If you uncomment the event for that box... it fires five or six times, for one click???
Seems the culprit is the dropdown option. (Thought it was a requirement, but a combobox is already a dropdown?!?!? Might want to remove that command. Just because a command exists, does not mean it works. Windows has lots of useless commands that are already default. Also notice, that height settings have no impact on that control, but it is stated as a "Required" value?)
Don't get me wrong... I realize this is an early development, in a late stage. That is why I am bringing these tiny issues into view, before they get set into stone.
Trust me... I love this thing. It already does more than I expected, and can only get better in time.
I will "Attempt" to make some examples, and harvest some usefull information. However, you need to make a tool for us to submit this stuff in a structured environment. (Via e-mail and forums is not structure, these are slow and free-form, and chaotic. Thus, the reason my A.D.D. brain loves them. LOL.)
Michael Hartlef
26-09-2008, 06:29
However, you need to make a tool for us to submit this stuff in a structured environment.
Eros,
Well.... I'm not sure if this individual/group is one or more people, but... if he/she/it ment with US = the thinBasic community...
then it doesn't include me.
Eros, I think you don't need to make anything. You provide us a free tool, made in your free time and with free outstanding support.
There is no NEED for anything here. The forums structure is just fine. You provided an area where bugs can be posted. So things are structured.
ErosOlmi
26-09-2008, 08:32
COMBOBOX with %CBS_DROPDOWNLIST style is in reality a complex control and is union of a TEXTBOX with a LISTVIEW/COMBO.
It fires more messages than a standard COMBOBOX in order to catch when the list is open/close/changed and so on.
The LOWRD(wParam) always return the control ID. But because a wParam is a 32bit LONG variable, Microsoft decided to use to HI part to store also more info like in this case. For simple controls like BUTTONS LOWRD and HIWRD of wParam is the same. For complex controls like COMBOBOX with dropdown list it is used to store more info.
So your script should handle this behave in something similar to the following (please use Syntax Highlight to color your code when posting):
USES "UI"
uses "Console"
Dim hDlg As DWORD
Dim Msg, wParam, lParam As DWORD
DIALOG New 0, "APPTITLE",-1,-1, 360, 255, _
%WS_POPUP Or _
%WS_VISIBLE Or _
%WS_CLIPCHILDREN Or _
%WS_CAPTION Or _
%WS_SYSMENU Or _
%WS_MINIMIZEBOX, _
0 To hDlg
CONTROL ADD BUTTON, hDlg, 1001, "Test", 5, 5, 70, 12
CONTROL ADD COMBOBOX, hDlg, 1002, , 5, 20, 120, 12, %CBS_DROPDOWNLIST 'Remove the CBS_DROP... and it works fine...
DIALOG SHOW MODELESS hDlg
While ISWINDOW(hDlg)
Msg = GETMESSAGE(hDlg, wParam, lParam)
Select Case Msg
Case %WM_Command
'---LOWRD contains the control ID
select case lowrd(wParam)
case 1001
MSGBOX 0, "Hello" 'Does not need LoWrd(wParam)??? But COMBOBOX does?
case 1002
'---In casze of complex controls, HIWRD contains event details
select case hiwrd(wParam)
case %CBN_SELCHANGE
printl "%CBN_SELCHANGE", Msg, wParam, hiwrd(wParam), lowrd(wParam), lParam
case %CBN_DBLCLK
printl "%CBN_DBLCLK", Msg, wParam, hiwrd(wParam), lowrd(wParam), lParam
case %CBN_SETFOCUS
printl "%CBN_SETFOCUS", Msg, wParam, hiwrd(wParam), lowrd(wParam), lParam
case %CBN_KILLFOCUS
printl "%CBN_KILLFOCUS", Msg, wParam, hiwrd(wParam), lowrd(wParam), lParam
case %CBN_EDITCHANGE
printl "%CBN_EDITCHANGE", Msg, wParam, hiwrd(wParam), lowrd(wParam), lParam
case %CBN_EDITUPDATE
printl "%CBN_EDITUPDATE", Msg, wParam, hiwrd(wParam), lowrd(wParam), lParam
case %CBN_DROPDOWN
printl "%CBN_DROPDOWN", Msg, wParam, hiwrd(wParam), lowrd(wParam), lParam
case %CBN_CLOSEUP
printl "%CBN_CLOSEUP", Msg, wParam, hiwrd(wParam), lowrd(wParam), lParam
case %CBN_SELENDOK
printl "%CBN_SELENDOK", Msg, wParam, hiwrd(wParam), lowrd(wParam), lParam
case %CBN_SELENDCANCEL
printl "%CBN_SELENDCANCEL", Msg, wParam, hiwrd(wParam), lowrd(wParam), lParam
end select
end select
Case %WM_SYSCOMMAND
If wParam = %SC_Close Then Exit While
Case Else
End Select
Wend
DIALOG End hDlg
Above script catch all possible events in dropdown combobox. Of course you just have to get the one you need.
Anyhow, in next version this is going to change completely because DIALOG and CONTROL callbacks will give you full control over events.
Ciao
Eros
ErosOlmi
26-09-2008, 08:37
... However, you need to make a tool for us to submit this stuff in a structured environment. (Via e-mail and forums is not structure, these are slow and free-form, and chaotic. Thus, the reason my A.D.D. brain loves them. LOL.)
Sorry but I cannot understand. If you can get me more info about that maybe I can help.
What do you mean by "make a tool for us to submit this stuff in a structured environment"
Thanks
Eros
Sorry, I talk cryptic... LOL...
Hmm... I didn't realize there was an option to color-code it... (New forum for me.)
"Create a tool", (Impossible to find one that exists, which does what YOU want it to do. Thus, the interest in thinBASIC, as a whole.)
"For us", (Since we are the ones without tunnel vision, and breaking things quite well. Everyone has tunnel vision, mostly because they don't have eight arms, 48 hours in a day, 24 monitors-mice-keyboards, and have an average WPM of 60.)
"Submit this stuff", (Comments to the help-files, example code on specific pages, missing data, data restructure suggestions, etc... Internet being a middle-man is not structure, it is free-form or abstract, like a horrible wiki.)
"Structured environment", (The help-files are structured, where we frequent, where we reference to, and what needs to be the flesh that covers the spine and brains of thinBASIC. Programming language is just more words, without definitions and examples for relation. Again, as opposed to "Stumbling" upon answers in the forums, or in a wiki.)
Many of the answers are there... nested in other locations. (As I pointed out above.)
Even just a simple link, controlled with javascript, (So robots don't use it.) Which creates a duplicate of the page, and allows direct "suggestive" editing of the posted text. Or, allows us to see others "open" suggestions, to simply vote for it as being helpful, or higher priority, or a better answer/solution/description...
There are project managers, but all the ones I saw, were over-kill, and had poor actual function. (Took longer to use them to enter the most simple of data, and the end result was not as simple to process on the other side. EG, nothing got done, or it all got done horribly wrong.)
ErosOlmi
26-09-2008, 09:35
1st:
If you can suggest a precise tool I can think how to implement it in current community. Otherwise I do not program for the web but only on thinBasic and thinBasic help file. If you have something to suggest to put into the help, please post material and I will be happy to include in next version. That's why we call this forum "Community" and not just "forum": we help each other in creating a better language and community feeling. We do not suffer those people that just making critics. Help us improve this place and thinBasic with material: modules, scripts, piece of help, or whatever you think can help. We will be happy to use your material and give credits. We love this way and we will protect this way of doing things.
2nd:
What about my reply/example on COMBOBOX?
Ciao
Eros
The exact trigger that I was looking for was the "%CBN_SELCHANGE"... (Well that is what I was attempting to use as a trigger.)
The problem with "Not knowing" that was even a constant, or not knowing that constants numerical value... was my initial problem. I have not tried to test it beyond the code you gave. (If it fires five time, I just have to add some code to stop the hair-trigger of events. I can't have the function fire five times, or continually fire endlessly, if the control goes haywire.)
It will work for now. Thank-you.
I will eagerly be awaiting the next release.
Is there a function that can be added to the core, which returns the "Constant Text", of a "Value"?
Eg, if I am getting "45" as a value, and "45" is a constant "%CBN_SELCHANGE", and "%MyValControl"... I would use something like...
xConstantText() = GET CONSTANT (xMyValueToCheck) ' Would be an array returned, listing all constants with that value. ("%CBN_SELCHANGE", "%MyValControl", "%OtherValue")... possibly, without the % on it, to simplify the result.
Since it works normally the other way...
xConstantValue = %MyValControl
That would speed-up developing, since we can output the results, to see what triggers. (Though, where multiple constants are matching, we would have to think a little more.)
Petr Schreiber
27-09-2008, 10:08
Hi ISAWHIM,
I just woke up so maybe I am getting it wrong :)
But I would recommend to use equates in any place where it is possible, hardcoding numbers is a bit dirty. I did this as well in my scripts, but I am trying to "equatize" the programs now as much as possible. The code is much more clean then.
I guess the good thing would be to update help file with info on related messages/notifications control can receive.
On the other side, Eros already did big improvement in help file for coming 1.7.0.0.
Petr
The problem I was having... was that there were no equates published for $MS_...
I was directed to the MSDN library, to a page which had no relevance to the function. (It was not even clear that this was a microsoft control, until he said it was a microsoft control. Details like that should be mentioned at the controls help location. Thus, we have MS else to blame for the odd operation.)
It looks like the same "Buttons" that hundreds of other programs use. But not all of them use microsofts button control.
With many of the controls, not all of the functionality is crossed-over, so it would be a shot in the dark, guessing what actually works. If a constant or command or function does not work... is it not working because it is not programmed, or because it is just a bug, or because it doesn't exist in this "Variation", or because we actually programmed it wrong?
I don't have time to waste, chasing an invisible tail. If this "Custom" version of the control has all the functionality of the original control, and they don't want to publish all the info that should be with the control... they should point to the exact location and say... "This is a microsoft (Common Button), all functionality and events can be found HERE."
MS does not use those "Text" names for the button control. (Not in VB.) There is no "Equates" or CONSTANT text that matches what the program uses here.
It is not good to direct people to other sites, to "Dig" and "Hunt", for something that the programmer of the control should have provided before the control was released. The list of all commands, functions, and constants. The programmer knows them, because he programmed the control.
That is why it would help us all... If an undocumented constant exists... and we keep getting back "24313" for that control... Which is not being handled by any of the KNOWN constants... If it is actually a constant, that function I was asking about, would return that value, and we COULD use that equates...
(Without knowing the constant, you have to use the number "24313" to trap the event, or react to that event.)
Petr Schreiber
27-09-2008, 20:30
Hi,
It is just bad to kick people out to other sites, to "Dig" and "Hunt"
Well, Eros is the last person who would just throw you in water, you can see he provided nice example for comboboxes.
I do not know other developer who cares that much! And MSDN, although sometimes very odd, is the best resource about learning topics related to MS Windows inner workings.
I think most of us here come from C or [Power]BASIC world, I almost sleep with Petzold under pillow, so for me it is natural ThinBasic button is just directly classic Windows button. But it is interesting to see your view.
So to put it short - you would like to have all information regarding control messages ( = all you need ) as part of the help file?
No point having "undocumented constants" in my opinion. The reason using number directly works is that ThinBasic UI is not so far from raw Win32 coding, so it does not restrict you as other too much highlevel libraries can do.
Petr
Normally, in a help file, (Related to programming), and even in here...
All functions relative to a control, such as expected error codes, constants, samples, etc... Enter the help file prior to the release of the actual control. (Because doing it after, usually ends-up in it not being done.)
This is one of the many controls, where certain details, like the ones I talked about here, are missing, and critical for any normal operation. (Anyone can make it sort-of work, and be happy with the results. But most coders use one thing over another, because of the details. Which there are none. No user can fill in the blanks. That is a complete reduction of production time on the user side. If we have to spend 24 hours figuring out what some of the commands for function are. It detracts from the whole "Simple" target that they were shooting for.)
If I look-up "Command Button"...
I see...
Attributes: cb_Length, cd_Width, cb_Top, cb_Left, cb_Click, cb_MouseOver, cb_BackColor, cb_Text, cb_TextAlign, cb_Enabled, cb_LinkID, cb_Index, cb_Style, cb_Locked...
Each as a link to the specific attributes help-page.
Plus...
Error Codes:
21 = Object not loaded
28 = This is a read only setting
32 = Value not set, incompatible data-type
Constants:
$_CB_HIDE (141)INT
$_CB_SHOW (285)INT
$_CB_ENABLED (true)BOOL
$_CB_DISABLED (false)BOOL
$_CB_RESET ("yes")STRING
Many of the items here have this information. Many do not. (I feel that it is the "Choice" of the help-file interface-edit that makes this task a burden, and thus, a slow progression.)
The suggested function, (It is a suggestion now, I guess, since it does not exist.), along with a USER NOTATION to the existing help-file, would help where things have been forgotten, abandoned, or put-off... Where things desire attention.
Thus my strong interest in trying to help this specific soar-spot of thinBASIC... (The incomplete "Documentation" portion, and the lack of "Efficient" ability to have "Desired changes" made. Promoting growth, not impeding it.)
Petr Schreiber
27-09-2008, 22:12
Hi,
I am sorry but I don't know what do you reference as "Command button"?
Normally, in a help file, (Related to programming), and even in here...
Where is here :) ? Eros posted code for Combobox for you with all possible messages captured.
And I fail to understand what do you mean by
cb_Length, cd_Width
$_CB_HIDE (141)INT
$_CB_SHOW (285)INT
$_CB_ENABLED (true)BOOL
$_CB_DISABLED (false)BOOL
$_CB_RESET ("yes")STRING
Do you request high level wrapper ???
What is "user notation" ? You mean users editing help file? We have forum section here for this purpose.
I see no point in "not having desired changes made". Are we still talking about thinBasic? Features are implemented very fast, if they are formulated clearly and have general purpose use.
If you want to suggest feature I recommend to use Suggest new features forum.
Do you come from background of programming language with high level abstraction of GUI?
Petr
The samples were just samples...
"Command Button" is actually a VB3-4-5-6 thing... (Object based, but not actually.)
The "Button" we use here, is a VB button. (Sort-of... it uses the same object that VB used.)
EG, I was pointed to MSDN, which shows things like that... and I am expected to "Guess" that $_CONSTANT, in here is used as $MS_BTN_CONSTANT.
Yes, I know the forum is uses as a go-between to the help files. That requires formatting, replies, and collaboration, for any change.
A "User notation" would be directly in a "simulated" version of the actual help file... Allowing us to write our notations, directly in the areas, sub-areas, which demand attention.
On the thinBASIC side. (The people who control the actual help file.) It would require a simple glance, sense of reason, and a quick direct edit... or a simple CLICK do deny or request more info on the notation. As opposed to running through a forum, trying to pick-up notes. The notations would instantly be seen, prioritized, and marked as handled, once added.
That also allows the people developing "Other Modules", to have things included into the helpfile. (Upon approval.) Like having sub-admin status. They can approve others notations, but the owners of the helpfile can override anything that was added by a sub-admin.
Even if it just says... "Information pending"... (You wouldn't have to look to find missing sections. They are all listed as "Information pending" in a separate status Q.)
Like I said, I am working on something to present along this idea. (I don't like just saying... Do this, do that... I try my hardest to offer solution, as far as I can. Even if it is just a half-assed idea that someone else can work with.)
Petr Schreiber
27-09-2008, 22:41
Hi,
well, I have no idea why ThinBasic UI module would use VisualBasic object to define button, as far as I know ThinBasic GUI is built using CreateWindow[Ex], as it is usually done in Windows.
Eros, Roberto and others ... we are not trying to recreate VisualBasic, we do new language :).
What are you suggesting is VisualBasic specific syntax, which is direction I would not like too see personally.
Win32 equates mean standard across languages, Visual Basic GUI syntax is product specific, and events are "hidden".
ThinBasic 1.7.0.0 will come with concept of callback functions, which is even closer to the inner workings of Windows, but with some making-life-easier enhancements.
Now I get your idea with "User notations", thanks for explanation. Well, I like the approach which took user and friend called MarcusLee, which goes through help file and points out things to be done, or for example Abraxas who already supplied examples for help file in dedicated forum here (http://community.thinbasic.com/index.php?board=108.0). When I have time I supply finished topics to be added to help file too.
If you are working on authoring system ... I am curious about result, but I think Eros for example uses professional tool, XML based software to edit the help file. So it is not just about generating HTML code "somehow".
I just think problem, if there is one, is not in lack of authoring tool, but lack of time. I think the best thing you can help with is to write ( if you want ) documentation in some usable format ( raw text file ), so the help can be updated with it.
As I said, Eros has profi tool already.
Petr
ErosOlmi
27-09-2008, 23:26
The problem I was having... was that there were no equates published for $MS_...
I was directed to the MSDN library, to a page which had no relevance to the function. (It was not even clear that this was a microsoft control, until I he said it was a microsoft control. Details like that should be mentioned at the controls help location. Thus, we have someone else to blame for the odd operation, and we can then assume, that it will react the same way.)
It looks like the same "Buttons" that hundreds of other programs use. But not all of them use microsofts button control.
With many of the controls, not all of the functionality is crossed-over, so it would be a shot in the dark, guessing what actually works. If a constant or command or function does not work... is it not working because it is not programmed, because it is just a bug, because it doesn't exist in this "Variation", or because we actually programmed it wrong?
I don't have time to waste, chasing an invisible tail. If thee "Custom" versions of the control have all the functionality of the original control, and they don't want to publish all the info that should be with the control... they should point to the correct location and say... "This is a microsoft "Common Button", all functionality and events can be found HERE."
MS does not use those "Text" names for the button control. (Not in VB.) There is no "Equates" or CONSTANT text that matches what the program uses here.
It is just bad to kick people out to other sites, to "Dig" and "Hunt", for something that the programmer of the control, should have provided before the control was released. The list of all commands, functions, and constants. The programmer knows them, because he programmed the control.
That is why it would help us all... If an undocumented constant exists... and we keep getting back "24313" for that control... Which is not being handled by any of the KNOWN constants... If it is actually a constant, that function would return it, and we COULD use that equates... (Without knowing the constant, you have to use the number "24313" to trap the event, or react to that event.)
OK, let's take in this way: I will ONLY reply to the above post trying to be polite and calm. If more insult to me or to this forum, you will be banned. That's sure.
We are very open to user suggestions.
We are very open to those trying to help us in any way they can.
We are very open to add material to help or other thinBasic related stuff is someone send us material.
We are very open to accept critics if critics are constructive aimed to improve thinBasic and not just stand by them self.
That said, here some facts.
Fact 1
I redirect you to the beginning page of Windows User Interface documentation at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa163284.aspx where you will be able to find all the info about constants used by thinBasic. That MSDN area is quite big but if you have the patience to search you will be able to find almost all the equates you need. In particular you will find all about COMBOBOX at the following page: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb775791(VS.85).aspx
Read through the link and you will find ALL the constants mentioned in my example. I repeat: ALL THE CONSTANTS and not just some.
You will also find the 3 different types of COMBOBOX described in details.
Now tell me again you was just redirected for nothing.
Fact 2
thinBasic UI module is very API oriented and not Visual Oriented. And this is especially true for the next coming 1.7.x version where callbacks will substitute the need of big WHILE/GETMESSAGE/WEND loops (that will be deprecated in future versions). If you know some Microsoft Windows API you will be familiar with thinBasic. If not, maybe you are loosing your time here.
Fact 3
All thinBasic controls (except 1 or 2) are standard Microsoft controls. There are no reasons to reinvent controls if the OS gives you so much power.
You will be surprised to know that almost all Windows applications use controls gently given by Microsoft OSs.
Maybe we will create some custom controls in future thinBasic version but this will be another story.
Fact 4
We cannot have all inside help. We are just 2 people.
Writing the current thinBasic help file took more time than developing thinBasic itself. Have you every tried to write a 1.6Mb of .chm help file? (just 4/5 images are present). Not compressed is more than 10Mb of text typed almost manually.
Can you mention another "still alive" free Basic programming language (or even not free) having the same help file as thinBasic have?
We will do our best to improve it and we have already thanks many thinBasic users that have contributed sending help material we have added to the help file.
Do you find something imprecise, some missing parts, something worth to be improved? Send us material and we will add into the help.
Fact 5
I've spent already too much time on this matter.
I expect you change your attitude here maybe helping in some areas. You seems to have great knowledge and capacity. If you like thinBasic, be positive (even with critics) and we will have great future together. Otherwise we are all loosing our time here.
Regards
Eros
PS: something I forgot to say.
Maybe you didn't notice it but most of thinBasic users are here with they real name and their real face.
This should say you something about how people here trust to each other and why we are working to keep this place a good place.
FYI: I can't use my real name in here, because I have an apostrophe in my name. That is why I use my trademark name, "ISAWHIM", which I use in every forum, and it is also my website, and developer name on IMVU. In essence, it is my identity.
I can't change perception. I have said nothing directly to anyone, short of an insult.
When I went to the suggestions forum, I was immediately shot down for making a suggestion, as if were not to be making a suggestion. I can quote the reply if you like. (Sorry, that was a shocker to me. I have never had someone bash an idea "Suggestion", in a suggestion posting. You made it sound as if I were demanding the world, while I simply provided a possible solution along with the suggestion. One that aided us all.)
Forgive me if "I" don't find this "Easy"... That is a fact, and an opinion, and a perception... One commonly shared, as I read through the forum postings.
I will try to keep my lame dry humor out of postings... Since some seem to be taking offence to it.
The only criticism I have ever offered, was with a reduced frustration. (People usually only come to "Help forums", when they are frustrated, and need help. If every client was greeted the way I was greeted, they would act the same way.)
There is no sign on the door that says... "Bob and Joe are the owners." You all look like normal posters to me. (Helpful ones that solved my problems, but pissing on my shoes in the process. Because I "Don't understand" this "Easy" program.)
I appreciate what is in the help file. I am sure we all do. I didn't appreciate being sent to MSDN homepage, and being told to "Find what you need"... I had no idea what I was looking for, and you did... This is the first place/program that I have ever heard of "Enumerations". That was like asking how to make orange paint, and you sent me to home depot, and said.. everything you need is in there, talk to the guy with the orange vest on.
(If it was in the help-file, I wouldn't be here in the first place. Because that is where everyone goes first... they come here second... or they leave, from the frustration.)
I apologize if I seem harsh... If it makes you feel better... then I will severely limit my observations. I already stopped making suggestions, because you said you were too busy. Figured I would attempt to lighten your load more, with my last suggestion... but that was shunned as "More work"... Fine, lets agree to disagree... I don't understand you, and you don't understand me. Don't threaten to ban me because I have an opinion that you don't like, or have humor that you don't understand. (For a minute, I thought you did get my humor.)
Anywho... I am going back to work... If I continue to get side-tracked, I will never get this complete. I'll be back with those samples of what I was talking about before. ("User notations", which you would/could use to allow us to help you, from within. Answer it once, and we all have the answer. As opposed to people coming into the forum, and "Stumbling" upon the answer, or you having to answer the same question over and over.)
Ok, this is "NOT" exactly what I was talking about... when I suggested "Notations"...
But, looking at it... This might offer a temporary solution. (I have not played with it yet, but it looks like it does most of what I was thinking.)
http://js-kit.com/
The "COMMENT" tool, not the other tools. (I did not see if it had an ability to integrate into a log-in system. But I am sure something could be arranged. It would simply be added as a footer to the HTML help pages. The manager console allows you to sort, clean, update... yadda, yadda, yadda... But it allows US the ability to make a live-note directly in the help-file. (Your eyes only, or public view... so we can help each other where we are stuck.)
ErosOlmi
28-09-2008, 10:14
When I went to the suggestions forum, I was immediately shot down for making a suggestion, as if were not to be making a suggestion. I can quote the reply if you like. (Sorry, that was a shocker to me. I have never had someone bash an idea "Suggestion", in a suggestion posting. You made it sound as if I were demanding the world, while I simply provided a possible solution along with the suggestion. One that aided us all.)
I will just reply to this point and leave all the doors open for the rest. Our behaves will talk for us.
The problem about your first suggestions was NOT the suggestions you made but the way you did it.
This is a calm and peaceful place where people talk of many things other than thinBasic even about other programming languages very similar to thinBasic. We all respect each other and the work we do, how we do it, what we think.
Your first appearing here was for us a shock (I use US because I get some PM of other users having the exact same impression). So you seemed someone trying to troll this community.
Maybe you made a mistake in the way you suggested things. Maybe there was a bug in our perception system. I suppose we can can recover the situation if we want.
You will never be shot if you make a suggestion. You will always be shot if you will be harsh in doing it.
Eros
PS: I've already added in help file all the equates mentioned in this thread.
Will be present in next release.
I am not sure what a troll is... Those ugly things that don't let you cross a bridge unless you pay them a toll?
TY for adding that info in the help file... (I have found the posting area for that, in the general section.)
I still think that having a point of contact, right there, where we see, and read... would be the better alternative to assisting the growth of this community. (Even if you can't get to it right away, all the info is right where it needs to be placed. Ready when you get to it.)
(I also frequent the PHP help, which is basically a live-forum, within the actual help pages. It is not uncommon to see samples, solutions, undocumented bugs, and full operating code that is related to the topic above. That is a little much to ask, but the user notations are a rather simple task... "Simple for me", to implement.)
Oh, My name is Jason D'Angelo... (I forgot to say what it was... just that it was not forum-safe for a name.)
ErosOlmi
28-09-2008, 10:31
Here definition of Troll
Please to meat you Jason.
Michael Hartlef
28-09-2008, 10:43
Hi Jason, welcome here. Why don't you change your nice to just Jason?
LOL, If you think my words step on toes... you should see me dance!
Welcome, and Thank-you...
It helps if you get-over the "I SAW HIM", and see the "Is A Whim"... (I don't like my birth name. I didn't get to pick it. I am still mad at my mother for that. I'll get back at her by naming my first kid after her... Boy or girl... it's name will be Mary!)
Michael Hartlef
28-09-2008, 11:56
LOL, If you think my words step on toes... you should see me dance!
Welcome, and Thank-you...
It helps if you get-over the "I SAW HIM", and see the "Is A Whim"... (I don't like my birth name. I didn't get to pick it. I am still mad at my mother for that. I'll get back at her by naming my first kid after her... Boy or girl... it's name will be Mary!)
Ouch, poor kid. But hey, here you could actually do that as long as the first name identify his sex. Like "Klaus Maria Brandauer". No, I have no problem with your tag. Leave it like that. I know now what you mean with it.
Just to clarify... Reading back...
When I said...
"you need to create"... (I was not implying that he MUST do it... I was trying to say that it would NEED to be created. There is nothing that exists which fits the demands of a developer. There are many public controls that sort-of work. But those still need editing to suit individual use.)
I swear, I was not demanding anything.
By "Us", I was refering to individuals who want to participate in helping.