TBGL 0.2.0.0

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi guys,

new TBGL is out and I hope you will like it!

This update adresses wide range of problems.

Biggest increase in number of functions is on "model shaders". They do +/- the same as before, but much more efficiently. Plus on krytons request there is function returning number of polygons.
TBGL_m15DrawModel should now be faster, according to my tests up to 12% thanks to some pointer optimizations.

As we can handle models directly, what about new bone functions and bug fixes :).
To animate models there are following easy to use statements:

TBGL_m15SetBoneChild - totally replaces clumsy tbgl_m15AddBoneTreeItem. No need to assign bones to "levels", just make clear who is parent and who is child.

TBGL_m15EraseChildbones

TBGL_m15DefBoneAddVertex - hope you will like it Mike ;)

TBGL_m15DefBoneAnchor

TBGL_m15DefBoneReset - resets ( erases ) definition of bone


Hmm, bones work but what about krytons hidden passion - Ortho mode :D. In TBGL you can now use TBGL_RenderMatrix3D and TBGL_RenderMatrix2D to use both types of rendering. Want to get 2D position of asteroid in pixels? Grab tbgl_Pos3DtoPos2D and go :D.

Of course, support for multiple key press is here ( thanks to Eros ) as well as TBGL_GetWindowKeyOnce which was requested by Matthew a long time ago...

And thats not all!
Just have a look at "What's new" section in TBGL help file. Version 0.2.0.0 has biggest increase in functions ever, but it also improves old ones - want glVertex2D ? So pass just 2 parameters to TBGL_Vertex instead of 3...

If you are just curious what is possible with TBGL 0.2.0.0, you could try attached basic scripts.
Have fun and report bugs ;D


Petr

[ErosOlmi]

Awesome new TBGL version. Big contribution for thinBasic projects.
Examples are so little, clever, linear.

Impressed at least!

[Petr Schreiber]

:)

thanks a lot Eros !
Samples are very primitive to show determined technique without too much extra code to confuse person studying the source.

Technique used in example with flares can be used to do classic Sun visualisation, lens flares ... or totally mad effects :D - try to comment out line


resy /= 4

- such a effect could be used for some bloom like stuff, so popular in todays games.


Bye,
Petr

[matthew]

Excellent Examples, I've just tried them. :)

[ErosOlmi]

What about adding the following line just inside the main WHILE/WEND loop in bone example?



...
...
While TBGL_IsWindow(hWnd)

TBGL_PolygonLook iif(tbgl_GetWindowKeyState(hWnd, %VK_tab), %GL_LINE, %GL_FILL)
...
...


Than press TAB key ...

[Michael Hartlef]

Petr, is the month yyou had estimated allready over? ;D Thanks a lot for this huge improvement.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi,

thanks :)

Yes that was that month Mike :D.
I originally wanted to release it when my exams end, but I was in too good mood after yesterdays one so I finished all I wanted ( heh, not exactly, at 23:00 I was sending latest ( third ) TBGL 0.2.0.0 to Eros because there was a bug in previous ones ;) )

Eros - TAB key makes sense only in bones sample, in all others it would not show much: alpha mapped grass would show just discontinuous diagonal and particles have blended borders so only the wheel would be visible.
But I will add it :)


Bye,
Petr

[cocoflop]

Thanks for the new version ;D
Where do I download it from?

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi cocoflop,

it is automatically present in latest thinBASIC preview release from today :)
So just install new thinBASIC and you can play with it and run new samples.


Bye,
Petr

[ErosOlmi]

http://www.thinbasic.com/index.php?name=CmodsDownload&file=index&req=viewsdownload&sid=34&orderby=dateD

In any case you should see on the left side of this web site 2 links: stable version (http://www.thinbasic.com/index.php?name=CmodsDownload&file=index&req=viewsdownload&sid=9&orderby=dateD) and preview version (http://www.thinbasic.com/index.php?name=CmodsDownload&file=index&req=viewsdownload&sid=34&orderby=dateD).
Always use preview version link to get latest changes.

Also see the "What's new (http://www.thinbasic.com/public/products/thinBasic/help/html/whatsnew.htm)" link where we list all the main changes introduced.

Preview version is updated quite frequently (about once every 2 weeks) in order to quickly give to all of you all the new features we introduce. This way you will be always informed about what we are working on and at the same time we can have fast feedback in case of bugs.

When preview version is considered quite stable, we move it to stable and start a new preview.

Ciao
Eros

[kryton9]

Petr, amazing additions and demos. Each one surprised me so much. Thanks!!

[cocoflop]

Wow, simply amazing!

Is the grass demo actually shader depended or it's a trick with polygons?

[Michael Hartlef]

WOW, great demo samples. They should be included with the ThinBasic distribution.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi,

thanks thanks again for nice words, I know why am doing it for this community ;D

cocoflop - grass is just trick. "Model shader" is noble name for my buffers and set of functions which takes care about models. Why I do not use real (vertex) shaders here ? First reason is hardware independancy - you can run this code on really old cards ( year 2000 ) and second I have not enough experience with shaders :)

So how is the grass trick done ?

First I create virtual model - created by quads. Vertex 1 and 2 define bottom, 3 and 4 upper part.

So when I want to move just upper part, I do this:


for i = 3 to vtxCount step 4
deviation = cos(gettickcount/1000+i)/2000
tbgl_m15SetVertexX(1, i , tbgl_m15GetVertexX(1, i)+deviation )
tbgl_m15SetVertexX(1, i+1, tbgl_m15GetVertexX(1, i+1)+deviation )
next


Step 4 is because I want to do it for each quad, and it starts from 3 because I handle only i (3rd) and i+1 (4th) vertex in each polygon.

It is very basic, but it can look good when you do not focus too much on it :)

Also I plan for future to make "model shaders" to be the same from programmers point of view, but it will use internally mechanisms best suited for hardware on which it runs. So on legacy hardware it will work as now, on newer I could use vertex arrays and so on. But this is a bit of sound of future :) ... and new cards crunch even the basic way very fast, so I hope we will not fall in some critical performance issues.


Bye,
Petr

[kryton9]

The performance is really incredible Petr. I first bumped up the grass to 512 and it worked no problem. I then bumped it up to 1024 and again it moved smoothly and looked so real. Really impressive!!

On the flares, for a great Bloom, change the /4 to /0.5 wow, it really glares and blooms.

The animated boxes, are just so surprising. To rig something like that in a 3d program and render out a movie is an experience, to see yours in real time looks as good, amazing!!

I don't understand making a poly the new way compared to the old way? What is the difference, other than syntax and structure? Is there better performance, more control? Thanks for any insight!!
Old Way:

tbgl_beginpoly %gl_quads
tbgl_coloralpha 255,255,255,alpha
tbgl_texcoord2d 0,0
tbgl_vertex -1,-1,0

tbgl_coloralpha 255,255,255,alpha
tbgl_texcoord2d 1,0
tbgl_vertex 1,-1,0

tbgl_coloralpha 255,255,255,alpha
tbgl_texcoord2d 1,1
tbgl_vertex 1, 1,0

tbgl_coloralpha 255,255,255,alpha
tbgl_texcoord2d 0,1
tbgl_vertex -1, 1,0
tbgl_endpoly

New way:

' Lets create quads
incr vertexIndex
tbgl_m15SetVertexXYZ( 1, vertexIndex, posx-0.25, 0, posz )
tbgl_m15SetVertexTexXY( 1, vertexIndex, 0, 0 )

incr vertexIndex
tbgl_m15SetVertexXYZ( 1, vertexIndex, posx+0.25, 0, posz )
tbgl_m15SetVertexTexXY( 1, vertexIndex, 1, 0 )

incr vertexIndex
tbgl_m15SetVertexXYZ( 1, vertexIndex, posx+0.25, 0.5, posz )
tbgl_m15SetVertexTexXY( 1, vertexIndex, 1, 1 )

incr vertexIndex
tbgl_m15SetVertexXYZ( 1, vertexIndex, posx-0.25, 0.5, posz )
tbgl_m15SetVertexTexXY( 1, vertexIndex, 0, 1 )

tbgl_m15SetVertexPStop( 1, vertexIndex, 1 )

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi kryton,

I was meaning making poly using "model shaders" :)

Old syntax would be:


sub CreateGrassTurfs( count as long)

local i as long
local vertexIndex as long
local posx, posy, posz as single

tbgl_m15SetModelVertexCount( 1, count * 4 )

for i = 1 to count
posx = rndf(-1.75,1.75)
posz = rndf(-1.75,1.75)

' Lets create quads
incr vertexIndex
tbgl_m15SetVertexxyz 1, vertexIndex, posx-0.25, 0, posz
tbgl_m15SetVertexParam 1, vertexIndex, %TBGL_m15texn, 1
tbgl_m15SetVertexParam 1, vertexIndex, %TBGL_m15texX, 0
tbgl_m15SetVertexParam 1, vertexIndex, %TBGL_m15texY, 0

tbgl_m15SetVertexRGB( 1, vertexIndex, 255, 255, 255)

incr vertexIndex
tbgl_m15SetVertexxyz 1, vertexIndex, posx+0.25, 0, posz
tbgl_m15SetVertexParam 1, vertexIndex, %TBGL_m15texn, 1
tbgl_m15SetVertexParam 1, vertexIndex, %TBGL_m15texX, 1
tbgl_m15SetVertexParam 1, vertexIndex, %TBGL_m15texY, 0

tbgl_m15SetVertexRGB( 1, vertexIndex, 255, 255, 255)

incr vertexIndex
tbgl_m15SetVertexxyz 1, vertexIndex, posx+0.25, 0.5, posz
tbgl_m15SetVertexParam 1, vertexIndex, %TBGL_m15texn, 1
tbgl_m15SetVertexParam 1, vertexIndex, %TBGL_m15texX, 1
tbgl_m15SetVertexParam 1, vertexIndex, %TBGL_m15texY, 1

tbgl_m15SetVertexRGB( 1, vertexIndex, 255, 255, 255)

incr vertexIndex
tbgl_m15SetVertexxyz 1, vertexIndex, posx-0.25, 0.5, posz
tbgl_m15SetVertexParam 1, vertexIndex, %TBGL_m15texn, 1
tbgl_m15SetVertexParam 1, vertexIndex, %TBGL_m15texX, 0
tbgl_m15SetVertexParam 1, vertexIndex, %TBGL_m15texY, 1

tbgl_m15SetVertexRGB( 1, vertexIndex, 255, 255, 255)


tbgl_m15SetVertexParam 1, vertexIndex, %TBGL_m15pstop, 1

next

end sub


New is:


sub CreateGrassTurfs( count as long)

local i as long
local vertexIndex as long
local posx, posy, posz as single

tbgl_m15SetModelVertexCount( 1, count * 4 )

' We will create quads, this sets white color to whole buffer
tbgl_m15SetVertexRGB( 1, 1, count * 4, 255, 255, 255 )

' ...this sets texture to whole buffer
tbgl_m15SetVertexTexN( 1, 1, count * 4, 1 )


for i = 1 to count
posx = rndf(-1.75,1.75)
posz = rndf(-1.75,1.75)

' Lets create quads
incr vertexIndex
tbgl_m15SetVertexXYZ( 1, vertexIndex, posx-0.25, 0, posz )
tbgl_m15SetVertexTexXY( 1, vertexIndex, 0, 0 )

incr vertexIndex
tbgl_m15SetVertexXYZ( 1, vertexIndex, posx+0.25, 0, posz )
tbgl_m15SetVertexTexXY( 1, vertexIndex, 1, 0 )

incr vertexIndex
tbgl_m15SetVertexXYZ( 1, vertexIndex, posx+0.25, 0.5, posz )
tbgl_m15SetVertexTexXY( 1, vertexIndex, 1, 1 )

incr vertexIndex
tbgl_m15SetVertexXYZ( 1, vertexIndex, posx-0.25, 0.5, posz )
tbgl_m15SetVertexTexXY( 1, vertexIndex, 0, 1 )

tbgl_m15SetVertexPStop( 1, vertexIndex, 1 )

next

end sub


... as you can see, using new statements you can set TexN and RGB in one go, in older scripts you were forced to pass for each vertex extra. Also old tbgl_m15SetVertexParam takes one parameter extra to determine which has to be changed and has no range definition possibility.

The same applies for animating grass - less parameters, faster execution.
Maybe it is not so evident for such a basic sample, but believe me it matters on more complex stuff :)

TBGL_BeginPoly / TBGL_EndPoly is classic, but you have to specify all parameters each frame for dynamic stuff. Using model way you define all in one go ( like display list ) but then you can modify just those parameters you want and others you let sleep :)

Hope it is more clear now :),
Petr

[kryton9]

Ok Petr, let me see if I got it:

1. begin poly and end poly method is oldest and slowest, but allows dynamic changing

2. the older vertex parameter method is faster then #1, and also allows dynamic changing.

3. display lists are the fastest method compared to #1 and #2, but you don't have dynamic control for changes.

4. the new vertex parameter way is fast as a display list, but allows dynamic changing. It is preferred over #1 and #2 methods
when dynamic changing is being used.

Is that it, or am I wrong in understanding it? Thanks for explanations, I appreciate it lots.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi kryton,

yes, I think you understand it perfectly !

But it would be too heretic to say tbgl_m15DrawModel is as fast as tbgl_CallList, this is not yet true.
Still, in TBGL 0.2.0.0 tbgl_m15DrawModel is faster than in previous releases.

Let me do test to show performance difference between last two mentioned :)


Bye,
Petr

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi,

I have created model which has 48000 vertices and was designed to be difficult to draw for 3D card - it uses 2 different textures which are swapped each 24 vertices ( well known fact that frequent texture combo is hell for any card ).

And here are results, comparing performance of tbgl_m15DrawModels and tbgl_m15CallList on my subgigahertz PC.
Please note those resullts should be worst performance achieved possible thanks to "nasty" model.


Bye,
Petr

[Petr Schreiber]

One more chart ;D,

this shows that even huge models with one texture ( which is technique Mike and kryton9 manage 100% ;) ) draw much faster than multitexture ones.

Please note 48000 vertex model runs smooth in both modes, where as display list has nice performance reserve ( jumped up by 15 FPS ), m15DrawModel is also faster, although just 5 FPS more.


Bye,
Petr

[Michael Hartlef]

Ok, so no excuse to not use the high poly version of Stinky bug.

48000 polys, jeez. What should I do with all this detail power. ;D

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi Mike :),

too bad this performance is just for rendering model, AI and collisions eat some time too.
Higher poly version of stinky bug ... hmm... that would be nice. Do you think it is possible to create mid-poly ( sounds weird :) ) version of the cinematic version just by some automatic process ?

Just because I was curious I tried to do tests on Win98 box with PII400 MHz, 320MB RAM and GeForce 2 MX 400 64MB.


Bye,
Petr

P.S. I am mad, why I do it in OpenOffice when I can do chart myself or using RMChart :)

[Michael Hartlef]

Do you think it is possible to create mid-poly ( sounds weird :) ) version of the cinematic version just by some automatic process ?


I doubt it... but hey... my new toy... ZBRUSH3 is about to arrive soon. It has some new topology functionalities. Maybe it can help. But I doubt it.

[Petr Schreiber]

WowTM,

Zbrush has a good reputation,
I hadn't heard any negative reactions on it so far.


Bye,
Petr

[Michael Hartlef]

It is a great tool but like other 3D packages, has it's learning curve. After I own it now for several years, with version 3 I plan on really using it. We will see ;)

[kryton9]

Petr since you have a script for the test already. Can you do it with poly's too along with vertices. It will be handy file for modeling.
THanks for the info.

Mike, on youtube in the 3dbuzz files, they have a nice intro to zbrush. I don't have zbrush, but it looked really interesting and the video really showed you a quick start with it. I think the higher resolution version is linked from that page also.

Blender is supposed to have a tool similar to the sculpting. I tinkered with it a little, but obviously the poly count goes through the roof.

[Petr Schreiber]

Kryton,

just divide vertices by 4, it is created from quads exclusively.


Thanks,
Petr

[kryton9]

Kryton,

just divide vertices by 4, it is created from quads exclusively.


Thanks,
Petr


Oh, cool thanks Petr. That is easy enough!!

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi,

you can now benchmark your PC yourself.
One Eros NASA there was no difference between lists and classic model render, how it goes on yours ? :)

To run benchmark just double click on tbglBenchmark.tbasic.
Do not touch anything, it will end automatically soon.

It's nothing nice, but it gives quite believeable results.

Then you can get results from TXT file and/or view them using attached ViewBenchmarkResults.tBasic ( uses RMChart library to draw chart ).


Bye,
Petr

[matthew]

Nice Programme, here are the Results from my PC. :)

[ErosOlmi]

You are crazy man Petr!! But I like your mad brain!

Here my results and a possible improvement: add some label to view result script describing GPU info and installed drivers.

Ciao
Eros

[Petr Schreiber]

Good idea !,

this would help me in avoiding answer "Matthew what is your 3D card" :D
Will do it !


Bye,
Petr

[Petr Schreiber]

Here it is :)

Just one thing is odd -
when I created faked result with 2000 FPS it GPFed on my PC, this is weird.
1500, 1700 ... all ok, but 2000 is naugthy


Bye,
Petr

[ErosOlmi]

Good!
2000 is a magic number. Realy I cannot think about any reasons why this can happen.
Did you tested last $CRLF in file? Is there?

[Petr Schreiber]

Yes,

it was probably CRLF I forgot to add :)


Bye,
Petr

[matthew]

More TBGL Stats. 8)

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi Matthew,

rare card, but nice performance !
I can see on your PC there is also not such a big difference between lists and raw mode, interesting...

Thanks !


Petr

P.S. And special prize for most esthetic chart caption ;D

[kryton9]

Neat benchmark program Petr. The rotating paddles of cubes and then seeing them decrease and go faster as a result, very clever visual!

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi kryton,

thanks for your results !
It seems GeForce 7 has more linear performance curve than others cards presented in this test!

Again interesting model/list speed ratio...

I am curious about Mikes GeForce too :)


Bye,
Petr

EDIT: Results from GeForce 2 MX 400 and integrated IntelGM (915?). Check out Intel in hivertex range !

[kryton9]

This is really nice to have these benchmark tools, it would be nice if they could be in one area or in the sample scripts for benchmarks.
When I get a new graphics card and build some more computers it will be great to use these benchmarks!!

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi,

maybe I will create sticky post / section on my website to have such a tools always at touch.

Kent, your card is only one approaching ( and in 2 cases beating ) unbelieveable Eros Radeon beast so you are the last person who needs upgrade :D
My Radeon was slayed by Intel solution from 6000 vertices up aaargh, still can't believe it.
I wonder if with XP and drivers it will get better ( Win98/ME driver support ended long time ago ).

Maybe future version of benchmark could catch one specific frame to be able to see different visual quality on various cards ( essential is Zbuffer handling, do you remember those artifacts with flat surfaces in terrain ? )


Bye,
Petr

[kryton9]

The new games, like Half-life 2, Battlefield 2, Need for Speed:Most Wanted and the new Flight Simulater X, they all are slow on my computer. I need to run at rather low settings to play and even then it is too jerky for me and makes me motion sick. So, I have put off really playing these games I bought.

Amazing IL-2 runs great as always. We found this new plane in the game, it is a blast to fly. The Heinkel Lerche. Another marvel of German engineering. Now we can land, well try to land everywhere, near landmarks etc. Really great fun!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_Lerche

[ErosOlmi]

Another test from another video card. This computer have AMD athlon 64bit processor.

[ErosOlmi]

Another test from an Intel onboard GPU and a P4 HT 2.8Gh processor.
Intel GPU are really slow.

[Petr Schreiber]

Eros,

thanks a lot. Intels are slow beasts, but things will hopefully change as Intel is hiring people to develop "cutting edge" GPU. I am quite curious.

kryton, I think problem is your card has 64bit bus interface, which is thing you will notice when dealing with huge geometry/too much traffic per frame.

Weird HL2 runs slow because I can play it on my PC at smooth (!) speed, only when too much physics calculation start to appear FPS goes down. But this is because of CPU, not GPU. Fact is I have 128bit interface, but this is still far behind by todays leaders.

Other reason of problems with performance is that your card does support all the super technlogies, but is has problem to perform them fast. This is always trouble with lower end cards - from parameters look like a monsters, but often they do not manage to perform t at reasonable speed. So my Radeon seems to new games like old granny, so they do not want much from it so rendering is faster ( although HL2 is looking awesome and I can't see any feature which wouldnot work as should )

For TBGL your card is great on other side!


Bye,
Petr

P.S. That german plane is mad stuff, really like from som sci-fi

[kryton9]

THanks for the other benchmarks Eros, this is nice to see who different systems and cards perform.
Petr, you described my problem with my card really well and that is probably the cause of the slowness I see in newer games.

[Michael Hartlef]

Here are the results from the german jury :)

[kryton9]

Yippee another Nvidia user!!! Although my notebook has an ati, I consider myself an nvidia guy, nice to know I am not alone :)

[Petr Schreiber]

Mike,

thanks a lot for your chart.
Again the flow is nVidiish :D, so quite harmonious.

And for 48000 vertices / 12000 polys there is nice reserve.

Yesterday I finally solved one painful OpenGL problem which will lead to noticable increase in performance in future TBGLs, will see.


Bye,
Petr

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi guys,

I have new more optimized version of TBGL 0.2.0, you can download it from attachment.

Model render procedure was redesigned to be more efficient and better matching poly topology of the model.
As you can see, driver of my 3D card appreciated it and could optimize display lists much better, so I get 2.6 - 7x better results in 48000 vertex model.

m15DrawModel is also from 10 to 17% faster, especially in hi-poly models.

Hope you will like it and all will work ok :)


Bye,
Petr

EDIT: Now all charts in one picture

[Michael Clease]

Heres the results from my machine with the new dll.

[ErosOlmi]

Abraxas,

I think you do not have latest benchmark script. Latest version should report you can and OpenGl info.
Script is attached to this post here: http://community.thinbasic.com/index.php?topic=871.msg5777#msg5777
In any case it seems you have a monster machine there.

Here my tests. Some differences are notes but different run give different responses.
Images are: before and after

Ciao
Eros

[Michael Clease]

With the new update

[matthew]

Here are my Stats for the New .dll. ;D

[Petr Schreiber]

Thanks all!,

I think I have to modify the chart output to some fixed axis range, this way it will be easier to see where slower, where faster. Or maybe try to load optional "BenchmarkResults_Old.txt" ? Will see.

Eros I am sad multiple runs give multiple results, but I think it happens mostly in low vertex range ?

I think for next version of benchmark I will cut down the mini-models, as they run fast always, maybe some more interesting and representative scene ?

Matthew, it seems you got some FPS extra too, I have plans to tune up TBGL even more in future.

Thanks again, and Abraxas, keep that beast in the cage, 3000 FPS is record I think :D


Bye,
Petr

P.S. I am sad the boost factor on your PCs was not so evident as on mine, I think this can be caused by fact you all have fast CPUs which already helped TBGL to spit frame by frame as fast as possible.

[ErosOlmi]

Petr,

even if your optimization didn't improved higher results, it is very important also to consider lower part of the curve (slower CPU or GPU).
We have to remember thinBasic is interpreted so even a single CPU cicle reduced will be better for all.

So thanks a lot.
Eros

[Petr Schreiber]

Kent's request moved here (http://community.thinbasic.com/index.php?topic=1149.0)

[kryton9]

My nvidia based 8800GT video card came in today. The difference between this card and my previous nvidia 7300LE card are like going from dial up internet service to high speed cable internet.
I have never seen an increase in quality and speed with such an upgrade in the last 10 years of any sort.

Anyways, here is the shocking results with all the video card settings turned to highest quality instead of performance.

For $300 I went with the factory overclocked card with a very nice non stock fan. These cards the gpu core runs at 700Mhz with 512mb of memory.
Both the Asus my friend got and the Gigabyte I got both came with special fans to keep the cards cool.

I was worried my 300 watt power supply would not be enough, but since I had 3 power connectors not being used, I guess it worked out ok. I had to tap into two of the 3 molex connectors to power the video card with the adapter cable they provided with the card.

[Michael Hartlef]

Nice one, congrats. :)

[ErosOlmi]

I can see your face smiling even from Italy ;D

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi Kent,

you have a monster, I have to write new benchmark :D
I cannot even read the values, can you provide the TXT file too?

If I understand it correctely, it finally works with 300W power supply, if yes, I know what is my next card candidate as this one is killer one.


Fantastic,
Petr

[Michael Clease]

Ken what processor and how many HDD do you have in your system?

I would replace with a 500W + just to make sure.

Ive been looking at the 8800GT/8800GTS but will wait and see.

[Petr Schreiber]

I am really surpised by 300W power supply enough,

on the other side Kent has the 8800 "remake", which was claimed to have lower consumption.
I browsed a web and found that while playing intensive games, PC with this card eats about 190-230 Watts, which is surprisingly ok.

Fact is those tests did not mentioned number of HDDs. Some people report even 350W was not enough, 450W recommended, now choose... :)


Bye,
Petr

[Michael Clease]

Dont worry about the watts look more at the Amps.

my psu 550w breaks down to

+3.3v 28A
+5v 35A
+12v 30A
-5v 0.5A
-12v 0.8A
+5VSB 2.5A

most important are the +3.3,+5 and +12.

[kryton9]

Thanks guys, yes this is the happiest upgrade ever for me. I have been always the slow one with least stuff the last 5 years or so in gaming with my friends... finally I am up there with the rest.

Thanks for the info about the amps... I will look into it all tonight.

I only have one hard drive and one dvd drive. No fancy lights or mods. I do have a tv tuner card also as it is a media edition HP. I just swapped the default 7300LE with the 8800GT.

It ran fine with about 4 hours of gaming last night, the gpu temp went from around 57-58 before gaming to about 62 right after gaming in Celsius. So it seems all ok so far.

If you look for one of these cards I recommend the factory overclocked to 700mhz with the custom heatsink and fan. I read many reviews where the cards that have the stock fans run very hot. There is almost a $100 difference between the original 600mhz card and the 700mhz version and many guys who are overclock gurus go with the cheaper one and do their own fan mod and overclock even above 700, but I don't feel comfortable doing overclocking on my own as I want stability.

[kryton9]

I ordered a 500 watt power supply tonight. So far the current power supply has been running great, but this afternoon while playing Need for speed: most wanted the video card stopped sending a signal to the monitor even though the computer was still powered. I figure the video card must have a safety switch that when the required current can't be full filled it shut the card off. That is what I am thinking, not sure though. That was enough to tell me to not put off ordering a power supply :)