Mission 1

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi,

here I'd like to explain technical part of mission 1.

Resources:
Model of station A
Model of station B
Model of ship
Meteors



This is the first mission. Kid flies a shuttle craft with cargo. On his flight from station 1 to station 2 he gets a warning that a comet just broke up and one of the pieces smacked into a big asteroid and now there is a massive meteor shower right intersecting his kid's course.
The game he has to manuveur the shuttle and avoid all meteors and deliver the cargo.


The part when kid is trying to avoid meteors sounds pretty good. It leads me to idea to give to ship more power than to move just left-right, forward-backward. So possibly I would like to add up-down movement in restricted interval.



Level 2 when he gets to station 2 and does level 1, boss man is happy he is safe and as his gratitude for getting the job done gives him a better shuttle with a weapon on it. He figures debris will be in the aread for some time to come from the impact. So this will be prudent.


In this part I have idea to not go in straight line, but to be binded on orbit of station, so you would run circles around station and try to protect it from impact of meteor. I would suggest round shape of station to make it look nice and also detect collision easily :).

My idea is following - try to complete one mission, then close adding features and move to another mission.

What do you think?


Bye,
Petr

[kryton9]

I like those ideas a lot Petr!! Protecting the station from the meteors is very clever and a great addition to the story for sure!!

To make the station look cool, it would be great to have fade contol of mesh. My idea. A sphere as you say, but imagine
2 hemispheric domes with central disc and cool structures inside of the dome and levels. Would be really neat looking. The sphere station has a day and night, so one side is in day and the other night.

[Michael Hartlef]

Soudn cool:

About the needed media I make a post in the media section

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi,

Mike I adore your auto correcting abilites - before few minutes here was media listed but then you moved it to correct thread :)

kryton, that would look great!, just watch the polycount :)


Bye,
Petr

[Michael Hartlef]

Sorry Petr, I thought I move it over as my post was media related.

[Petr Schreiber]

No sorry Mike,

I was just surprised by your auto-correcting functions :)


Bye,
Petr

[kryton9]

Watch Polycount, no way. I see how fast thinbasic and tbgl are, i used to be low poly kryton, but now I see the power and the polycounts just went through the roof :D

Ok I will think low as much as I can!!

[Petr Schreiber]

Kryton9,

I don't know if you have time for this now...
But ... :) Would it be possible to not bake any "jetlight" to engine exhaust in your model textures, I would like to put few particles there.

Also if possible ( just at texture level ) place some mini exhausts in front and back part to be able to rotate ship with engine "sparkling". Please watch my idea on screen. The aircraft must not look as the one on picture, this is there just to better explain where to put stuff.


Thanks,
Petr

[kryton9]

Petr, we are reading each other's minds. The reason I am redoing all my models is I am going to make them more low tech, no warp engines as they are now but thrust based either ion or whatever.

I always loved the star fury on Babylon 5, it had all those exhaust ports. I was going to base all my craft on that type of idea and that is why I am redoing them all.

I am also thinking about docking to stations, wether it will be like in Deep Space Nine a docking ring and door or an easier to handle entry into the ship with individual compartments than can be pressurized and depressurized, I am leaning towards the latter as is this will impact the design of the ships and stations. The compartment bays allow greater freedom in design of the vehicles.

I am also evaluating the cargo and passengers in the story to determine nice sizes. So taking my time a bit to do it right this time.

BY the way I like that design for the shuttle, looks cool. Can I try to make it!!

Send more sketches of ideas and models you would like, nice designs and thoughts Petr. The same for Eros and Roberto, if you guys have sketches put them up. I will be glad to try to model them. Mike, I am not asking you as you are already doing great models already!!

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi Kent,

I am very happy you are working on that !
I think some mini flames from exhaust will make it look more "real". But this will be my work :)

I am now prepairing script for mission 1, it will be quite different experience comparing to "instant action", and I am also adding menu. It will take time, but I hope it will be good.


Bye,
Petr

[kryton9]

I will try to get you models as soon as I can. Station 2 will be the spherical design, any preference for station 1?
Making it story and mission based it will be totally different. So much more to handle good luck!!

[Michael Hartlef]

I'm working on a highres model of Stinky Bug for wallpaper, intro, stuff like that. :) Also improving the M15 exporte ris on the list for the next days/weeks.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi guys !,

kryton, I have no special wish for space station 1, maybe it could be little bit "oldschool" like Mir was and ISS is :)
Maybe I would prefer some open hangar docks than just join point like space shuttles are parked :)

Mike, my expectations are extreme, seems krytons alias for the ship has survived :)


Bye,
Petr

[kryton9]

Mike, Stinky Bug is such a great ship, it will be great to have it as the splash screen. Can't wait to see it. It sure looked good in the banner you made. Cool more goodies for the blender export, neat!!

Petr, not sure what you wanted? Did you say you want docking rings and not bays? This will impact the design of the ships so important to know which you prefer.

Docking Ring: the ship has to manuever and lock to a docking ring like device, get a seal and then the doors are open. This means all ships must have the same size docking system and doors.

Landing Bay: The ship flies in, the hangar doors close, the space is pressurized and then the doors open. This can allow various size ships and door sizes and no need to for a docking device.

[Michael Hartlef]

I vote for landing bay.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi,

maybe I expressed me in not very clear way. I am all for landing bays !


Thanks,
Petr

[kryton9]

Phew, that will make life a lot easier with landing bays!!

[kryton9]

I placed The Bus into TopDown3D tonight to see how it looked, it looked better than when I looked at it in the 3d apps. But I see that we don't need all that detail at the bottom, especially for the instant action game.

Then the thought sort of hit me. Since the story is getting pretty exciting and we got a nice team already working on it. Why not maybe make the mission game more of mixed mode game. This way we have fun and develop all sort of engines.

For example, as in instant action, the mission can have topdown view, but in addition side scroll, and even first person action. Maybe even a starcraft or command and conquer type of level. Whatever fits the level of the game and storyline the best. It would be unique in that so many forms of play would be in one game and it would show the versatility of thinBasic and all the cool modules you guys developed.

Just a thought, to see what you guys think?

I am going back to very low poly models for the instant action and will work on putting nicer detail with textures instead of modeling, especially for instant action as so much of the ship is not seen or that detail needed.

Sorry ran late today, so I couldn't get anything done other than figuring how to texture bake again.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi kryton,

only detail which I find too high are the exhaust "cones", it would be ok to make them just 6 or 8 sided.
I have very strong feeling just topdown view is very boring and done milion times.

I was thinking to take level 1 as controls tutorial, with camera like in "Rogue Squadron" or any similar third person game. Optional could be camera with free look around plane like in Sturmovik and another with important "focus-to-nearest-enemy".

Now the fights are soon very boring, but moving them to full 3D will make the game maybe litle bit more difficult, but also quite fun with kind of "dogfights".

Finally I would maybe prefer this freedom of camera ( selectable using keys ) than forcing user to get used to new view in each mission. Also I am not sure mixing of engines in our first project would be good, source would get messy and it would lost its educational ( ha ha :D ) value. But I can be wrong.

My idea was to have one station on Earth orbit and second ( for example ) nearby Moon. Textures Matthew pointed out in another thread are really good ones, and for example Venus looks awesome.
You will have to maneuver ship through various way points ( you reach one, another appears ). This will give player ( false :D ) feeling of movement freedom, because he will move in big space. To limit his journeys, you will have to be nearby "space buoys", providing communication and navigation. So you will be able to move +/- kilometer from such a objects at max.

From my first tests it is interesting to fly from Earth to Moon :). Earth will be quite static, but with moving clouds.
You can see this in menu for example too. I would like to make space more "life like" with some additional traffic like fast ships with post ( quite paradox in electronic age :) ), or bloated supply ships.


Bye,
Petr

P.S. I know how bad look the stars on the image, I will solve them other way, like a sprites. Some will be static, some glowing. Because background would always suffer from low texture resolution I think this could be way. From krytons galaxy maker we would use the colorful galaxy soups additionaly in more distant space, as they look good.

[Michael Hartlef]

Wow, lots of ideas. I concentrate on the exporter for the moment. :)

[kryton9]

There are so many ways to go and to do this. It does help to talk about it and sort of test out ideas.

To keep the programs manageable, each mission could be its own game depending on the type of game engine.
For example the first person levels or even parts of the story can be run from the first person engine(program), and the same for all the other types of engines. There would be a master game control program that called these programs as needed. It is complicated and just something up for talking about and to see if doable.

Petr your menu screen looks nice and your ideas for variety sound really good. I hope I get back today with enough time to model, I found out my Sister is coming to visit Saturday thru Friday, so I won't be able to do much those days. Sorry about that. Hopefully will make up for time in April and May.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi kryton,

enjoy your relax time :)
I finally solved trouble with rotations so I am able to control "bus" with jets.

Mike, would it be possible to do the asteroid model again with texture which has no lights baked in ?


Thanks,
Petr

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi,

just to show you progress...
I would like to release script soon, but I have to cleanup source first :)


Bye,
Petr

[kryton9]

Oh Wow, what a preview picture Petr!! That is going to be amazing to control the ship that way through all of those meteors. Looks really awesome from the picture, thanks!!

[Michael Hartlef]

COOL!! I like what I see ;)

[Petr Schreiber]

Thanks!,

hope you will like controls of the ship :)


Bye,
Petr

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi,

here is basic script to get idea how movement in space could work.
Just do not forget that vehicle keeps moving even if you do not hold "pedal", you have to compensate forces :)
Collisions are not implemented yet.

Bye,
Petr

[Michael Hartlef]

Awsome, but the controls are to strong. They should not react so heavy on the ship, you you can react to the movement. But great work.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi Mike,

thanks :)
Jets sensitivity can be configured by editing last parameter in files under "Ships" subdirectory.
And I thought the rotation jets were too slow :D Or is just main engine too fast ?

I need to get this factory setup from kryton, he is the manufacturer :)


Bye,
Petr

[kryton9]

WOW, we are in space now!!! Petr, awesome work. I can't tell you how cool that is, just superb.

I will need to play with it fully tonight to comment on the controls. Each time I tried it so far, I am getting better with it.
So once I put in enough flight time, I will make some suggestions if any are needed.

But this is so cool, it will be fun to come home after my visit with my Sister and doing things with my Dad to relax and fly!!

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi,

I am happy you like it :)

The controls are more difficult than in arcade games, but I enjoyed a lot feel of "mastering the beast" in Il-2 Sturmovik for example, so I wanted to make it similar here. Don't know if it is not too much difficult, for me it is easy as I have been practicing whole weekend :D


Thanks,
Petr

[kryton9]

Petr, each time I do play with it I am getting better just as with the instant action game. On the other hand, I think the way it is now-- I would say that is maybe for an advanced player on hard mode. It is realistic how you have it and makes you appreciate the work astronauts do piloting.

One thing, I know they use gyros to stabilize the ship and they probably have preprogrammed firing routines to do certain manuevers.

My thoughts at the moment, leave it as it is for users who want to play at hard level for the game.

I think for easier game level settings, it would be nice to have the ship have some simpler controls:
Just some ideas.

SpaceBar, auto stop all motion and spins and level the ship.

A toggle to turn the thrust on and keep it moving at a relative constant speed, not realistic, but easier to control.

The user basically determine go forward or backwards, the speed is constant unless and accelerator is used, either joystick throttle or + or - key.

So maybe one tap of + goes forward, one tap of - go backwards. Each additional tap increase or decrease the seed depending o + or -

The up and down arrows will turn the ship left and right and tilt up and down. But it will not rotate into strange rotations, the ships gyros will keep it stabilized.

Spacebar like I said would be stop, level the ship.

But definitly keep these settings for realistic and hard settings. I am sure it will be alot easier to fly using a joystick or gamepad. The keys work fine too.

I am really enjoying what you did and am AMAZED!!!

[Petr Schreiber]

Thanks kryton :),

there is a key to kill rotation now - [ DELETE ].
It originally killed whole movement too.

Just few questions:

"Level the ship" = put it to be in "horizontal" position with no rotation ?

So if I understand it correctly - on easy level it will be controlled almost like an airplane, on realistic it will be as is ?


Thanks a lot!,
Petr

[kryton9]

Petr, your description sounds good. I guess once you try different setups we can figure out good combos of difficulties and features. I just can't believe how realistic you made it. That is really something!!

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi kryton,

thanks for nice words :)

I have idea for easier level - try to put following on line after "FrameRate = tbgl_GetFrameRate":


DeltaMove.x /=1+1/FrameRate
DeltaMove.y /=1+1/FrameRate
DeltaMove.z /=1+1/FrameRate
dLeftRight /= 1 + 1/FrameRate
dUpDown /= 1 + 1/FrameRate


This will make ship protected from mad rotations and light speeds. Do you think it would be usable ? ( + permanent main jet run )

I have also one idea regarding your multi-gametype conception of game. I think players are able to accept two genres/systems at time, but more is mad. DungeonKeeper was great combination of RTS and FPS for example.

So what about plus minus current space mode and third person character camera on stations ( you could have some nasty drink at spacestation bar and talk to boss in this modes :) )

I know interiers are another extra modeling work for you guys, so please tell me if it is ok or not.
This situations could be good for some basic cinematics

(
* "Hi guy!"
"Did you heard the news ? Aliens were seen in our sector by some pilot"

* "Hmm, and what if I say you it was me ..."

* "Really ?! How did they looked?"

* "I am sorry, boss awaits me in office"
"See you later near the bar..."
)

It would be basic, just two characters opening mouths, but with changing camera angles
Is it acceptable ?


Thanks,
Petr

[kryton9]

Petr, I like that conversation, that is good. I think that is the kind of stuff Mike wants to get into also and I think it is a great idea.

About the mod to control, I got a chance to try it out and it sure is easier and fun to use. I tried to get the F5 camera mode to work a certain way, but too tired to figure it out.

It would be neat if in the F5 cam mode the camera always looked where the ship's forward window looked and the camera stayed locked up and behind from the ship, sort of like first person view but with the character in this case the ship visible to the player.

I love F6 mode. I had made a similar mode in my test space game and loved flying my shuttle fleet as if a radio controlled squadron. It has that same feel and fun factor with F6, just for fun flying.

But we do need more of a F5 mode where the player can steer through obstacles and see what he would see flying.
THanks for all the fun for now, with the little time I have on the computer these few days am enjoying it a lot!!

[Michael Hartlef]

Yeah Petr, that sounds good. So if I understood correctly, it will be a mix of a shooter and 3rd person view. Interesting. :)

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi guys,

F5 camera is currently done similarly to one of "free" Sturmovik cameras, except you need to hold button to rotate view. Some more classical cameras could be better, it was just for testing :)


Thanks a lot,
Petr

[kryton9]

I understand Petr, but I couldn't figure out how to get that sort of setup.

Maybe some new commands like getObjDir (objectID) and getCamDir (camId) might do the trick. Sorry need to rush, will try some more when I have time and see if I can figure it out or find the need for some more commands.

Thanks, it is so neat flying around the meteors.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi Kryton,

commands you mentioned are relatively easy to do, biggest problem with camera model you suggested is not to be on 100% precise place, but to be ( paradox I know ) "slow on movements" and make impression of chasing the model.

Else it looks very unnatural. Don't worry, I am working on it :)


Thanks a lot,
Petr

[kryton9]

Petr, that is great to hear. I am sure you will come up with a very neat routine, thanks for working on it!!

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi,

here is little update - shooting of asteroids.
There is little problem with collision detection as asteroid model is not centered yet, so target to center of it.

Bye,
Petr

[ErosOlmi]

Well, I would like to be good like you in 3D and game design to help you on this job.
Unfotunately I'm good in other programming areas but I really would like to be able to program games.

Asteroids shooting is a wonderful example of you capabilities. Thanks a lot for your job.

From my side I can only say what I would like to see on it so, please, pardon me if I will do the "user".

I think the veicle controlling is too much "simulation" and too little "arcade". You know what I mean. It is a bit difficult to drive it in space even if I understand that that way is the way it has to be to be real.
Personally I like the classic A,D,W,S plus mouse to drive the veicle and left or right button click to shot. Also the mouse movement should be 360 free degree and give the direction.

That said, shooting is really nice and realistic. Asteroid explosions are nice too. I like that.

Anyhow, thank again for this nth... (I do not remember how many perls you already give to thinBasic community) example.

Ciao
Eros

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi Eros,

thanks :)

Mouse as control device did not occured to me but it could be good.
Gamepad will be supported definitely to take advantage of Mikes module...

I will try to work more on camera which is now not ok, and the movement control "arcadisation" :D


Thanks,
Petr

[Michael Hartlef]

Hey, that sounds good. I will give it a run tommorow.

[kryton9]

Yes, the new features are very nice, but very hard to control and shoot and hit the asteroids. I hope it is not my bad aim :)

Gamepad support will be great. You have a tough job to get the camera set and to follow while making it possible to aim, fly and shoot and then hit a target. But we all know you love challenges and seem to find a great solution all the time. So take your time and pull off one of your magic coding tricks!

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi,

I was just putting together the space part of mission 1,
please see the image.

- Red circles are navigation satelites, you must keep close to them
- Black polygons are asteroids

As you can see, flight is split to 3 phases.
In the first, you will be trying to understand controls of the ship
Second - you will see explosion of comet, and get ready to pass through meteors
Meteors won't be static, they would fly quite fast towards Earth where they will burn in atmosphere.
Some asteroids will explode and split in two to scare player more :)
Third part - you will get to possible third person mode, talk to boss, get new ship ... This must be thought deeper.

During all phases you will have to manage to get not too far from navigation satelites, or you will be considered bad guy trying to kidnap the cargo.

With fast asteroids I will keep constant asteroid buffer, but as some willl burn in atmosphere, new will be created. Not too many asteroids, but high number of waves and directions.

Is it ok ?


Bye,
Petr

[Michael Hartlef]

Yip, this sounds good. So it will be mostly first person view flighting, or 3rd person view?

[kryton9]

Wow very neat idea Petr. I know it will be hard to do, but it would be neat if the mission could be played as third person or first person. THis way you can play the same level and see it differently. If it will be too much of a mess to sort out, don't worry about it. Just a thought as I read your post and Mike's question and got excited!

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi,

first person for flying is the easier part, it would need some cockpit ( maybe just "window" frame ) with possibility to look left,right, up like in old classics X-Wing vs. TIE-Fighter. So one model extra.

Maybe it would be better for feeling of "being in" to use FPS in missions as main view, and 3rd person as optional choice to better get idea of position in space.


Bye,
Petr

[Michael Hartlef]

I vote for 1st person view.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi,

here is just very basic first person, looking left/right/up not yet implemented.
I have also changed a little bit the shot range, so hitting asteroids should be much easier now.


Bye,
Petr

[kryton9]

Oh man,WOW-- Petr, first person definitly now that I see it!

Maybe instant action should just be third person and the mission game all first person?

Although it is fun to fly the ship and look at it from far away too. Maybe the landing sequences can be in third person or outside camera view. Maybe coming into a station or being seen from the control deck etc. Then the player could use first person or those other views.
The option would be neat for the whole game, but that could be a real mess to code. I know the racing games like Need for Speed always had replays and so does IL2 and it is fun to watch from different angles.

Side note, talking about IL2, a new game came out, IL2 - 1946. My IL2 playing friend bought it and told me about it, so I will buy it this week. It is a bundle with all the other IL2 games for something like $30, what a deal!!

Either way I love all these tests Petr, so much fun. Now back to more asteroid shooting for me before going to sleep!!

[Petr Schreiber]

:)

thanks kryton!

And it will be even more fun when you will see explosions from within real 3D cockpit, light from explosion will enlight it in strange colors... Do you think it would be possible to quick sketch some temporary cockpit ?

IL2 1946 sounds exciting, I like a lot experimental planes from WWII, because they look quite sci-fi very often. I am thinking of buying it too.


Bye,
Petr

[kryton9]

Do you want the cockpit to be a "sprite" or an actual 3d one. I will be glad to do either and if you have any sketches or point me to pictures of what you like I will be glad to try to make it similar. I am always willing to create my own design too, but would like to have info from you guys of what we might see in the panels, or I can just make blank panels that we can put animated textures too later.

Very excited, let me know when you can and of course to hear Mike's ideas too.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi,

definitely 3D cockpit, 2D would need extremely big texture to look good, and we would loose light interaction with environment.

I have no specific idea, I would just like to see there panel to display video communication ( for animated head ),
probably some HUD, and two general purpose square displays. This should be enough for tests, please do not spend much time on it as it is possible it can change a bit finally!


Bye,
Petr

[kryton9]

Petr, I did this before seeing your last post. I just wanted to tinker and see how it would look. This is just a very early mockup test etc.
At least you have something and we can talk about it more in concrete steps now.

I will attach the blend file and the jpg of a render.

I started with the seats and then did the floor and worked my way up. Although ok, I should work from the ship skin in towards the ship, to give it that more polished look. I will break up the big control panels into smaller faces to apply different textures too.

Anyways this gives you something to play with while I sleep and start on a better one tomorrow.

[Petr Schreiber]

kryton!

this is nice, I will use it for tests now.

Thank you very much !,
Petr

[kryton9]

Since this relates to the cockpit and shuttle I am posting this here, it could belong with the story section too, but not sure.

Last night I dreamed of TopDown and sort of came up with this thought. Since Luna is able to serve transport service from Earth to the frontier, it must be a successful and big business and not a third rate service as I first thought. My original thought was it serviced the outer frontier areas of high risk, ask no questions and survive areas. But since the story has evolved into a fuller story, I think Luna should be a first class operation with cool ships. Bossman is generous, as he supports Marc with what he needs as the situation arises.

I was thinking the cockpit would be different than what I did. Although for the game this sort of open look might be better.
I was thinking that in something so complex as a spacecraft that each side, that is each pilot seat would be redundant system to make sure the ship is controlled and able to run ifone side is damaged.

I then thought the controls would be wrapped around the pilot seats and a center console would go up, this would mean no center view but views from the pilots as in the space shuttle now. This is more logical, but probably not doable for the game.

Would you prefer the open cockpit but in more detail as it is now Petr, or would you like to see this design too?

[kryton9]

Here is the latest shuttle design in the works :) It will have a cockpit sort of like the picture I posted as a test last night. My idea in the previous post from my dream will not be good for the game, I realized that as I modeled tonight.

[Michael Hartlef]

Cool design, I like it a lot, plus it should be easy to unwrap and texture it. Keep it. :)

[Petr Schreiber]

Fantastic !,

this looks very nice kryton, can't wait to fly in it!

Great design, I can see it crusading the space...

Just one thing - if it would be possible to lower num of polys on engines to half :-[, we could avoid performance issues on notebooks with Intel cards, as they do not have hardware T&L implemented yet.

But if it is problem, we can put designed for ATi & NVIDIA on the game ;D


Bye,
Petr

[kryton9]

THanks Mike and Petr. Petr I will try to do a minimalistic poly version tonight and see how much we can get away with just textures.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi,

here is another little test with freelook in krytons cockpit.

This should be also last release with messy code. I am now splitting code to dedicated includes, and organizing some stuff to avoid conflicts with overwriting textures and display lists in future.

Just one thing - I would like to keep models not more than 2500 vertices from now.
Sadly, VW and second model are both over 6000 vertices. I think most of triangles spend was in the jet cones, would it be possible to make jets lower poly like in last perfect krytons luna transport blue plane ?


Bye,
Petr

[Michael Hartlef]

Petr, great job, it has a very good feeling to it.

[kryton9]

Petr, very nice, got excited made minor tweaks and added some joystick input.

Throttle control moves you forward or backward.

Joystick left/right is turn left and right

joystick up/down is turn up and down

button 1, fire is firing the shots

That is all for now, it is now 8:30am, been up all night.

[Michael Hartlef]

Cool Kent, thanks! :)

[Petr Schreiber]

:)

That's nice kryton,
it is quite different experience !
Also perfectly usable for gamepad, just had to remap slider to button 5 and 6 :)


Bye,
Petr

[kryton9]

i was so sleepy, but wanted to get it out, I need to add output that shows when the throttle is off, forward of backward, hard to tell now unless you go to an outside view.

Thanks at least a start for using tbdi, I think it makes it alot easier to fly. I also modified the ships.txt files for slower turning and moving.

I will add more later, I got to work on setting up this server on the old computer for some work. Hope to have time tonight.

[kryton9]

Petr, can you hold off on the next version. I have some more ideas I want to put into this version, then you can clean it up and do the next version and convert my mess into the way you like it.

Give me this week if that is OK as I got so much to do. If that is too long then let me know.

[Petr Schreiber]

No problem kryton,

take your time.
My final exams times will begin soon, so releases will now be little bit less frequent,
depends how fast I will make the tests :)


Bye,
Petr

[kryton9]

In my rush to put tbdi use and since I was flying in IL2-1946, I just automatcially worked on the joystick.

But in the input poll, and I agree, the gamepad will be a better solution. I hope to map more controls
and some more info.

Good luck on your exams Petr!!

[Petr Schreiber]

Thanks kryton :),

we can create profiles for both gamepad and joystick,
they work similarly.
Only problem I had with gamepad and your joystick code was, that the rotations were very slow.
But this can be customized I think.

I have other problem - the space as is in previews is very static and not very attractive.
I was thinking about adding random "dust" clouds to have something to pass by :)
This feeling will be improved when we will introduce traffic in space and blinking navigation points I hope.


Bye and thanks,
Petr

[Michael Hartlef]

Man, this sounds allready nice. Can't wait to see this :)

[kryton9]

Sounds good Petr. That is interesting that the rotation seemed slow to you, on my computer the way you had it set it was too fast.
We might need to factor in the cpu speed into the equation to make the reactions similar.

Also I thought about the outside support files, will post comments about that in that thread.

[Petr Schreiber]

kryton,

I do respect speed on different PCs using FrameRate as "factor". I think gamepad has maybe different range of values it returns ? I must study TBDI more deepely :)

Mike, I want this game to be nice. Models are perfect already, the code and game possibilities must follow :)


Bye,
Petr

[Michael Hartlef]

I think gamepad has maybe different range of values it returns ?

Then it is the script, and how it interprets the values. By default, you will get -1024 to 1024 on each axxis. No matter what the joystick/pad has as raw values, as DirectInput translates them internaly.

[Petr Schreiber]

Thanks Mike,

I will have a look


Petr

[kryton9]

I am going to hopefully wrap up New Remmer tonight and get to work on the gamepad controls the next few days. So by the end of the weekend I should have all done and can get back to modeling. I posted sort of stuff mixed with this and the support file format in that thread.

[Michael Hartlef]

Cool, new remmer. This little tool became so handy. I really like it.

[kryton9]

Thanks Mike, I got a really bad sore tooth tonight, so cutting work as hard to concentrate. But it is very close to being finished.

[Michael Hartlef]

Ouch, best wishes for a fast recovery.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi kryton,

I'm sorry to hear about your tooth pain,
hope it will go away soon !


Bye,
Petr

[kryton9]

Since I moved to Florida, I have put off finding a dentist, now it is time, hopefully I will find one that can take me in soon.

I feel ok now, so hope to offer Remmer to you guys by tomorrow. THanks for the sympath and well wishes guys.

[kryton9]

Hope the video attaches. Here is just a short video with voice to update on what I am working on with the last bit of code Petr had put up. I am not where I wanted to be on it, so I apologize, hence the update to show you I am working on it, ever so slowly.

I got it setup for Petr's minimal gamepad support, that is dpad and 6 buttons. It actually works out well to tell you the truth.

Well enjoy watching the vid. Encoded in xvid and rar'd.

http://www.kryton9.com/web/posts/vids/xvid/topdownMission1/update2007-05.rar

To slow down the rotations, equivalent to the old delete key function... I said button 5 in the video, I meant button 6. 5 is used for switching camera modes quickly.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi kryton,

very nice video!

Just don't forget it is possible to sync spacedome with ship to be not able to go behind :)
But this trouble I can fix later in next preview release, have fun !


Thanks a lot,
Petr

[kryton9]

Got a neat strange thing tonight while experimenting with radar development for the game.

I don't know if it is the blend options I am using or what, but it is neat and can be useful for some effect later on perhaps.

I thought it was worthy of a video to share how amusing it seems to me.

http://www.kryton9.com/web/posts/vids/xvid/topdownMission1/strange2007-05.rar

[kryton9]

I am wanted to develop the radar system outside of the main code for testing purposes.

This is not looking at any of the 3d data that would be in the game, but it will show how the radar might be, except for the random dots changing so quickly.

Red is asteroids below you. Green above you and Yellow at or near your y location. Ahead of you will be to the top half and behind you the bottom half. We are the bright green in the center.


uses "tbgl"
#include "%app_includepath%\thinbasic_gl.inc"
#include "%app_includepath%\thinbasic_glu.inc"


global hwnd,s as dword

hwnd = tbgl_createwindowex("radar test - esc to exit", 240, 240, 32, 0)
tbgl_showwindow
s = gluNewQuadric
tbgl_getasynckeystate(-1)
while tbgl_iswindow(hwnd)
tbgl_clearframe
init
display
tbgl_drawframe
if tbgl_getwindowkeystate( hwnd, %vk_escape) then exit while
sleep(400)
wend
gluDeleteQuadric(s)
tbgl_destroywindow

sub init()
glenable(%gl_blend)
glblendfunc (%gl_src_alpha, %gl_one_minus_src_alpha)
glclearcolor(0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0)
glcolor4f(0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0.3)
glmatrixmode(%gl_projection)
glloadidentity()
glortho(-10.0, 10.0, -10.0, 10.0, -10.0, 10.0)
end sub

sub display()
glclear(%gl_color_buffer_bit)
gltranslated (0,0,10)
glusphere (s,8,32,32)
glcolor3f(1, 1, 0)
glpointsize (2.0)
glbegin %gl_points
glvertex3f rnd(-4,4), rnd(-4,4),rnd(-4,4)
glvertex3f rnd(-4,4), rnd(-4,4),rnd(-4,4)
glvertex3f rnd(-4,4), rnd(-4,4),rnd(-4,4)
glcolor3f(1,0,0)
glvertex3f rnd(-4,4), rnd(-4,4),rnd(-4,4)
glvertex3f rnd(-4,4), rnd(-4,4),rnd(-4,4)
glvertex3f rnd(-4,4), rnd(-4,4),rnd(-4,4)
glcolor3f(0,1,0)
glvertex3f rnd(-4,4), rnd(-4,4),rnd(-4,4)
glvertex3f rnd(-4,4), rnd(-4,4),rnd(-4,4)
glvertex3f rnd(-4,4), rnd(-4,4),rnd(-4,4)
glvertex3f rnd(-4,4), rnd(-4,4),rnd(-4,4)
glend
glcolor4f(1,1,0,0.5)
glpointsize (6.0)
glbegin %gl_points
glvertex3f 0,0,0
glend
end sub

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi kryton,

very nice radar !

Regarding the graphic bugs with blending / bad positioning of square and triangle.
You probably draw them after spacedome is drawn, but before any other stuff. This way you can see through them just that, what was created at this time.

Solution is simple :) To draw fixed position, blended GUI, you just need to render whole scene, then put there tbgl_resetmatrix and render the GUI - all things will be visible through as they would exist already + any camera angles are canceled using tbgl_resetmatrix so you can render like you are looking from 0,0,0 to 0,0,-1.


Thanks,
Petr

[kryton9]

THanks Petr, I will try that tonight when I get home. Here is where I am at the moment.
Petr, if your exams are finished and you want to get going again on topdown, go ahead. So go ahead with your next step.

I wrote this before seeing your last post, but still you will know what is in the code :)
Here is my code so far, I put some subs in at the bottom and also have the sphere defined, created and deleted, but I am not using the functions anywhere as it messes up the display. I am trying to get ortho view for the radar then switch back to perspective view for the normal topdown screen. Maybe you will have some ideas. Once we get the dummy radar in place then I can work on getting the asteroids to show up on it. But am really stuck so far. Take a look at the code and maybe you have some ideas.

I placed init, display and resett where the text is displayed, where cam mode 2 is processed and also right above the text display. None seem to work well.

The crosshairs are aligned nicely on screen at 1440 x 900, it will be interesting to see if they work in other resolutions.

The gamepad is setup.

Dpad
UP: tilt ship up
Down: tilt ship down
LEFT: turn left
RIGHT: turn right

Buttons:
4: go forward
2: go backwards
3: fire

5: cycle through 3 cam modes, 1 is first person, 2 is third person camera with ship, 3 third person camera is fixed.

1: resets the camera when in cam mode 3

6: acts as delete key does on the keyboard

Put the script with your JetTest_F folder and it should run :)

[ErosOlmi]

Ken,

nice, nice Radar example.
Maybe a different solution other than SLEEP should be found because SLEEP will stop the whoole script from execution.

Something like:

store previous data to show
check time passed at every loop
if time passed is > 400ms than generate new data to show and store it again


Thanks
Eros

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi kryton,

I think one of biggest troubles was using glclear(%gl_color_buffer_bit) - that erases screen !

I have created version which does not use ortho and looks same.
On other side now I realized you mean it as 3D radar - center of sphere is you and others dots are ... others :) Cool !
Then it would maybe look better in right corner, where it would have better recognisable perspective.

Sadly, exams are not over - first two start tommorow :P


Bye,
Petr

[kryton9]

Thanks ERos, that was just to slow it down a bit while doing the test. But, here is where I use stop now and I would like to find a better solution. That is where input is involved. Right now without a sleep, the input comes into quickly and you get not the results you want.

For instance if space bar is pressed and you want to fire just one shot, it will fire more than one, actually quite a lot of them, without a sleep(200) or something it is very sensitive. Also if you use input to toggle options or cycle through things, it goes through more than one at a time. The only solution i have found so far is using sleep.

Is there a better way for this?

[kryton9]

Hi kryton,

I think one of biggest troubles was using glclear(%gl_color_buffer_bit) - that erases screen !

I have created version which does not use ortho and looks same.
On other side now I realized you mean it as 3D radar - center of sphere is you and others dots are ... others :) Cool !
Then it would maybe look better in right corner, where it would have better recognisable perspective.

Sadly, exams are not over - first two start tommorow :P


Bye,
Petr


First good luck on your exams Petr. As always you impress me how quickly you find solutions to things I slave over for hours and days :)
Yes the radar will need to be off to the side, I was just trying to get it to show up in the game, I couldn't even do that :) The screenshot is very encouraging. Thanks. I will keep tinkering to learn, but the code is in your hands when you have time to do your next magic session!!

[Petr Schreiber]

Kryton,

this was present in TopDown3D_JetTest_F.tbasic - just time out value so it shoots each 1/4 of second.


if tbgl_GetWindowKeystate(hWnd, %VK_Space) and gettickcount - SpaceTime > 250 then
SpaceTime = gettickcount
incr ShotID
if ShotID > %MAXSHOTS then ShotID = 1
' ...


But next TBGL has function to detect "keydown", so this would be good for exact shooting.




Thanks,
Petr

[kryton9]

Petr, hmmmm, it was still firing very fast for me with that code. That is why I put sleep in. Will see when the new tbgl comes out with new input command, thanks for letting me know about it, I won't worry about it then. Good luck on those exams!!

[kryton9]

Petr, with your hint and showing me your screenshot of getting that fake radar to show, I finally got it working, well at least the green circle.
I don't understand how you are getting around the ortho and perspective dilema that all other opengl programs seem to use? Which one is the magic command to know how to deal with each view mode?

[kryton9]

Did you guys see Petr's secret key in the last topdown code. I can't beleive I have been working on this code for 2 weeks and finally saw it tonight.

I call it Petr's Hell Storm, looks cool!! Yes, I am getting the radar almost. COming soon.

[kryton9]

Petr, need your help to tweak this. I almost got it working. Need to be in cammode 2 for now. I got the radar rotating, but it still is not correct. The first asteroid straight ahead usually works out, but when I turn it doesn't put the asteroids in front top as I had hoped.

It would be neat to have a button to level the ship to the XZ plane also. This way you can level out nicely. It would be neat if the ships roof's normal was the same as the ZX plane's normal, I hope that explains it ok.

Anyways it is almost there. I will be heading off to sleep and will leave this for you to make nicer when you have time. THanks. Please put your script when you have it working, I am having fun hunting down asteroids :) The radar does help, even now.

Red is below you, green above you and yellow at your height.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi kryton,

radar is quite tough task, as below/above is relative each time ship rotates.
I need to think it more deepely, I have just returned from exams and my head is empty :D

Bye,
Petr

P.S. Congrats on discovering secret key ;)

[kryton9]

Petr, I thought of this while sleeping. Since this is our first game, it doesn't have to be a totally awesome simulator. To keep things simpler and also make it easy for players to do things, how about this?

The ship does not tilt up and down, but moves up and down. Especially for a shuttle this might not be bad. This way the ship is always in the XZ plane and oriented up. The player can still move in 3D but we get rid of the orientation issues.

I will change the code tonight and try it and see how it works. Actually the code is there, I will just move the dpad up and down from the tilt up and down to the move up and down keys. THen we can get the radar working perhaps the way it should.

what do you think?

[kryton9]

Petr, the above, below and same height, that is the green, yellow and red seems to be working, at least for the most part it has seemed ok.

It is getting the asteroids to rotate on the radar so the ships direction on the radar is always pointing up, and the asteroids it is going towards are always at the top of the radar screen. That is not working out right. Will work on it more when I get home tonight, let me know how you fair with it when you have the chance.

[kryton9]

Got it working!! Not the way I planned, but for now it is a start. I am rotating the ships icon, which is now a triangle. It rotates and points properly and moving up and down you can find the asteroids. I still need to add code to not show asteroids off of the radar, although it is useful to see them now.

This version the ship stays parallel to the XZ plane, easy enough to change back, but I find it easier to move around and not get disoriented this way. Would like to hear how you guys feel about it. As I said easy enough to change back to the way it was.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi kryton,

very nice !

Only thing which is little confusing is that when I rotate ship left, on radar I rotate right. It is like looking to my ship but from below.

I have idea about doing radar this way - 3D sphere, with white ring determining XZ plane. There would be drawn all objects like in scaled 3D, but with vertical lines towards XZ if they are elevated, under surface.

Then different colors could mark not different heights, but different kinds of objects.

I will try to demonstrate it soon :)


Thanks for your work kryton !,
Petr

[kryton9]

Your idea sounds very interesting Petr. The code is in your hands so do your magic as time permits.

I tried to fix the rotation oddity, but couldn't. I figured it works very accurately from my tests, maybe eventually we can figure out how to make it mimic the same direction. I tried adding 180 degrees, doing negatives you name it. I am sure there is a way, I just couldn't figure it out last night without messing up the asteroid positions.

Good luck!!

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi kryton,

little OT - to relax before exams ;D I have installed 2 old games.
First was Tomb Raider 1, second ( today ) Conflict: Freespace... and I was shocked!

Both use ~relatively~ simple principles, but are real joy to play while graphics have still something which makes them believeable. If we can achieve this in TopDown, I will be very happy.

TR still rocks in animations and gun fights, and Freespace has really cool radar ( and awesome intro, but as I know you and Mike this won't be problem ;) ), very very similar to yours! It works a bit differentely, I must study how and then I will report what I will find :)


Thanks,
Petr

[kryton9]

Enjoy playing and relaxing Petr.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi kryton,

good news !

I have found the way to project object position to "2D", simple way to manage radar then.
But what is better, I am now able to detect whether object is behind me ( any camera angle ) using "ask my Radeon directly" way :) This test will probably help slower PCs, but testing for presence of asteroids as mentioned I got 10 to 15 FPS up, which is ok I think :)

This functionality will be present in next TBGL,
now I hurry to study to another evil exam :D


Bye,
Petr

[kryton9]

Cool and very exciting to hear about this new feature Petr. Good luck with exam!!

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi,

final exam is approaching, so here is little progress on TopDown before learning starts :).
I have kryton like radar working but I need to fix some stuff, probably in next release it will be present.

So whats new ? Optimization on asteroid rendering ( ignores those behind ) and also marking asteroids with squares ( in highest priority layer )

Sources are now splitted and should be more readable.
I'm sorry this release is not very revolutionary, but I need to think some things more deepely.


Bye,
Petr

[kryton9]

THanks for the latest release Petr. I understand this is a work in progress, but I wanted to mention I didn't see the radar or targeting reticle. I don't think we need a block around the asteroids, sort of takes away from the scene. If you want to have a block, then one that auto locks when in target site, that would be cool.

Still lots to study and learn from. Good start on breaking it up. I made a project file, but see why you didn't. I will post in request area for thinAir about that.

Thanks again!!

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi kryton,

yes, radar is not present here. I am working on it. It will look like yours, but work a bit differentely. If you will not like it I can rollback to your version of course! The asteroid marking is also just temporary solution, more sort of demonstration such a thing is possible than I would like to have it there. As you said it will be possible using something like this for locking enemy or navipoints.


Thanks for your comments,
Petr

[Michael Hartlef]

Hi Petr, thanks for the new version. The target lock on all asteriods is to much.
Fun thing I noticed was that when you shoot, it does it from one side only, but when you
turn the ship, it fires another shoot from the other side.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi Mike,

this seems like a bug - does it mean ship shoots from its back instead of front ?
I will have a look where problem is.


Bye,
Petr

EDIT: Now I see it, not front / back but left / right. It occurs at special angles only, this should not happen, I will revise code. Thanks !

[kryton9]

Mike you have an eye for finding bugs. I never noticed that while playing with it today.

Petr, there is lots to learn from that code. Making the lock symbols is nice and handy in many games!!

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi guys,

just minor thing, would you like this new explosion look instead of growing toruses ? :)
Particles automatically face camera at any angle, you can check it when pressing SPACE key.

Bye,
Petr

P.S. Mike, sorry for torturing stinky bug :'( ;)

[Michael Hartlef]

That's it. I quit. I can't deal with this respectless behaviour ;D

Great job, look hellish. Quit a fire I would say. Keep that. :)

[ErosOlmi]

Really impressive pressing SpaceBar stopping explosion and looking it in 3D.
wow

Challenge: ddd up/down/left/right and zoom to let go inside explosion ;D

[kryton9]

Another amazing Demo Petr!! If in a true spherical shape it could also be a great Sun!!

I couldn't figure out where the code was to make it look at the camera from any angle?
I just woke up, maybe when I am more awake I can see it. Thanks, that is a wonderful demo for sure!!!

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi,

the trick is in "manual" modelview matrix manipulation, it is possible to maintain position, but reset rotations.
And this is what I needed :), as I realized it is quite common technique.

Eros - good idea for the challenge, I will try to make possible watch explosion closer ... in dogfights :)
Seems quite lot of work, but as this will be essential part of TopDown...


Thanks,
Petr

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi guys,

here is new version with some improvements!
Space is now ( almost LSD ) colorful - I mixed krytons nebula picture multiple times. So it does not look so empty now.
Still I want to add dust particles and so on.

Also I have modified way the ship is controlled to be more flight sim like ( left,right does roll around Z axis ).

Please do not miss this release, there is surprise inside ;). Still a experimental one but ...


Bye,
Petr

[kryton9]

I won't spoil the surprise.

Petr, very nice job you did. I have a hard time flying with the keyboard and I think the tbdi support that was in there is not on at the moment. But the graphics, new explosions and rich scenery are very nice. I will look at the code in detail later when I can concentrate on it.

Thanks, it is really coming along very nicely!!

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi Kent,

yes, there is no TBDI support now, because I am continuously cleaning up the source, and probably forgot it somewhere.
I will put it back in next release - it is essential functionality.

One think - I am considering the jet system to be simplified a bit. So there will be particles from main engines ( no more ellipsoids ), but the rotation jets won't be probably visible.

Regarding source, better to not watch too much now, it is still quite messy, but I am working on it :)


Thanks,
Petr

[kryton9]

Have you tried setting up something like first person shooter type input as controls. That is the mouse controls where you look, hence the direction you go. The W key moves you in the direction you are looking. The S key moves you backwards. The A and D key move you left and right as in strafing, not turning. To turn you would move forward but move the mouse in the direction you want to turn.

The left Mouse Button is fire, the scroll wheel is weapon cycle and the right mouse button alternate fire. This I think would be a great way to make a regular input for the game, for those without a game pad.

I really like the new explosions, really great how you figured all of that out!!

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi kryton,

yes, that would be probably much better,
I will put it there :)

I was doing some nonsense stuff today, so I added sound to the game and possiblity to ... "surprise" ;) + surprise now ... :D.
Also when engine is on there is little shaking of the cockpit and also engine sound fades as "pedal" is leaving out.
With Mikes music on background crawling between asteroids and shooting, krytons nebula on background ... yes, this game must be finished ;D

I have returned the TBDI to the project too.


Bye,
Petr

[Michael Hartlef]

Man, stinky bug looks good in flight mode ;D I liked the surprise very much. But Kent is right. You need a joystick to try to catch him.

[Petr Schreiber]

Hi,

I am deformed by running the script milion times a day so keyboard was no problem for me :(.
Don't worry, new version will fix this controls madness :)


Bye,
Petr

[kryton9]

Great thanks Petr!