9/11 - 10th Anniversary

[danbaron]

The older I get, the more convinced I become that governments never stop playing the people for fools.

I am 90% convinced (and, I'm usually not more than 90% convinced about anything) that 9/11 was a scam, an inside job, a false-flag operation.

I bet many people who are publicly silent, suspect the same thing, but are afraid to voice it.

I just saw on the calendar, that 9/11 is officially designated as, "Patriot Day", here. Is that a tip-off that something is wrong?

Here's what indicates to me how dumb the average (by definition, IQ = 100) person is.

For any event like 9/11, say, for instance, the JFK assassination, the government offers a simple explanation for what occurred, and assigns blame to certain people, groups, governments, etc.

Often, the government uses its explanation of the event as a justification to start a military operation, a war.

Then, the government "classifies", makes secret, a huge amount of information associated with the event.

(After the JFK assassination, one of the members of the official commission, basically asked, "If Oswald acted alone, then why is everything classified?". And what was the response? Nothing.)

Thinking people begin to ask, "If the event happened as you claim, then, why are you not allowing us access to all of the information you have about the event?".

Those people are met with silence (Would you call it "ignorance"?, meaning that they are ignored. Maybe that is the wrong use of the word.), all they hear is the sound of crickets.

After that, those members of the thinking people who are not intimidated, begin to say, "I think the government is lying to us.".

I think it's a natural reaction, people (or governments) only hide things, when they have something to hide.

Then, the government publicly labels those who publicly doubt its story, as, conspiracy theorists.

(If you think about it, which is more crazy, to think that sometimes government conspiracies are real, or to think that every government conspiracy theory, is false?)

The government then promotes a campaign to equate, "conspiracy theorists", with feeble-minded people, traitors, and lunatics.

A large portion of the population (encouraged by the mainstream media) begins to mock and villify the "conspiracy theorists". It never dawns on these idiots, that conspiracy theories (like stereotypes), don't randomly appear for no reason.

Concerning 9/11, in my opinion, many many logical reasonable questions have been asked of the government, which have been ignored by the government. Therefore, what person with a brain in his head, would not be suspicious?

Actually, my speculation is that, even most "flag-wavers" also secretly think 9/11 did not happen according to the official story.

I think that they think that it doesn't matter. I think this type of person has a lot in common with the person who secretly thinks not everything in the Bible is true. To them, for whatever reasons, the most important thing is always to maintain the official mythology. Truth, is at most, of secondary importance to them.

My bet is that the absolutely worst criminals, the real psychopaths, are not hiding in the mountains of Afghanistan or Pakistan, but are revered members of government and business, who live lives of insulated luxury and immunity, and who are always available to smile for the cameras, and provide the populace with their words of, "wisdom".

"Ignore that man behind the curtain.", said the Wizard, right?

[LanceGary]

My problem with conspiracy theories is that they assume a massively competent government. Everytime we can prove the government did something wrong (e.g., Watergate) the government turns out to be extremely incompetent. Look how hard it is for the government to keep anything secret (e.g., wikileaks). So I find it hard to think that that bunch of incompetents somehow became so expert at organising things that they could oranise a 9/11.

Lance

[danbaron]

I think that basically, we don't have enough information to make a judgment.

There could be small parts within the government which are extremely competent and efficient in performing their tasks.

If so, and they wanted to keep secret what they did, then, we would have no data concerning them.

People make a similar argument concerning criminals, that they are generally incompetent. However, we would know nothing about any perfectly competent criminals.

(I'd bet there are parts within the government which are, "off the books", i.e., which appear on no accounting of expenditures. And, I wouldn't be surprised if the president had only limited, if any control over these parts.)

Dan

[Charles Pegge]

Architects & Engineers - Solving the Mystery of WTC 7 - AE911Truth.org


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZEvA8BCoBw


http://www.ae911truth.org/en/home.html

[danbaron]

I have to be careful about this subject, it angers me too much.

And, additionally, it seems to me that airing facts does no good whatsoever, those at the top are immune from logic, facts, and justice.

(What good does it do to know the truth about a crime, when almost everyone is some combination of corrupt, indifferent, stupid, and cowardly?)

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But, concerning the architects and engineers, count me in.

B.S., structural engineering, University of Illinois at Urbana (home of Mathematica)

M.S., structural engineering, University of Illinois at Chicago

Ph.D., engineering mechanics, University of Illinois at Chicago

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Here are a few things I remember.

Israeli "art students" in NYC, were seen cheering as the jets hit WTC1 and WTC2.

The NTSB, as it normally does in any aircraft incident in the United States, was not allowed to investigate any of the crash sites.

The steel from the collapsed buildings was immediately collected, and loaded on ships to China to be recycled.

After all flights were grounded in the United States, and less than seven days after 9/11, a charter flight out of Boston flew many members of bin Laden's family to Saudi Arabia.

No fighter jets were "scrambled" until at least 90 minutes after the first jets strayed from their flight routes.

Months earlier, Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld had changed official policy, so that no jets could be scrambled without his authorization. On 9/11, no one could find him for the first 90 minutes.

On 9/12, Rumsfeld began blaming Osama bin Laden. How would/could he know?

No skyscrapers before or since ever collapsed due to fire. But, supposedly three did on 9/11.

The jet fuel from the two jets would have immediately run out of the entrance holes, and down the elevator shafts.

The flames were not hot enough to soften the 49 steel columns in WTC1 and WTC2.

WTC Buildings 1, 2, and 3, all fell at "freefall" speed (acceleration), which would have been impossible without there being planted explosives on each floor.

As WTC1 and WTC2 fell, firefighters heard a succession of explosions.

If the flames were somehow hot enough, the heating of the columns (placed in a non-symmetric pattern, because of the elevators) would have been uneven, the buildings would have tipped instead of imploding.

There was evidence of thermite found in the basements of WTC1 and WTC2.

WTC7 imploded at 5:20 PM, after being struck by - nothing.

A BBC TV reporter standing outside in NYC reported that WTC7 had collapsed prior to its collapse (prior to 5:20 PM), while it was visible standing in the background of where she was talking from.

Concerning the Pentagon event, Secretary of Transportation, Norman Mineta:

"There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, 'The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out.' And when it got down to, 'The plane is 10 miles out,' the young man also said to the vice president, 'Do the orders still stand?' And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, 'Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?' Well, at the time I didn't know what all that meant."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Mineta

On and around the Pentagon were at least 83 surveillance cameras that would have recorded what hit the Pentagon. Only one videotape was ever released, in which it is impossible to determine what the projectile was.

The entrance hole in the Pentagon was much too small for a 757. Later, the roof collapsed, and disguised how small the original hole was.

Whatever hit the Pentagon, approached it at approximately 500 mph, while only a few feet above the ground. That is impossible to do in a 757. The air current beneath the fuselage would have become turbulent, and flipped the jet prior to impact.

Whatever hit the Pentagon passed through a total of six 18" thick reinforced concrete walls (through the inner wall of Ring C). A 757 could never do this.

No wreckage of a 757 was recovered from the Pentagon.

No bodies were recovered from what hit the Pentagon.

According to the official story, Flight 93 crashed in Pennsylvania, after the passengers overwhelmed the hijackers. That is false. Wreckage was found over a six mile area. A U.S. fighter jet shot down Flight 93.

PNAC (Project for a New American Century), September, 2000:

"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event––like a new Pearl Harbor"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a good book.

http://www.amazon.com/Painful-Questions-Analysis-September-Attack/dp/1931947058/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1315453244&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Painful-Questions-Analysis-September-Attack/dp/1931947058/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1315453244&sr=1-1)

Here is another good website.

http://www.911truth.org/

[Charles Pegge]

You can relax Dan.

As we have seen recently, there is a great appetite in the mainstream media for exposing corruption and foul deeds in high places. With the accumulation of such evidence, the mainstream media around the world will have a feast. It will be impossible to control. The question is when. Watch what happens after this 10th anniversary.

Charles

[danbaron]

"You can relax Dan."

I hope, I hope, I hope!

[danbaron]

It seems that the easiest way to show that something is wrong with the 9/11 story, is to do an energy calculation for WTC1 or WTC2.

The only energy driving the collapse was due to the gravitational force,

E = mgh

m = mass of tower
g = acceleration due to gravity at Earth's surface
h = 1/2 the height of the tower

If it can be shown the the energy expended was greater than that amount, then, the extra energy had to come from elsewhere.

http://fishy911.org/index.php?action=viewEvidence&evidence_id=10&issue_id=2&toplevel_id=1

http://www.911research.com/re911/hoffman.html

http://www.911research.com/papers/dustvolume/index.html

On the other hand, Jim Hoffman claims that a 757 did hit the Pentagon (so, that's part of what I'm worried about, we'll go around in circles forever).

http://www.911research.com/

[kryton9]

There are so many questions that should be addressed, but then that would open up a very disturbing can of worms. Media in the US is asleep. You have to search on the internet to get any real news. Now our media has even begun being critical of wiki leaks, that is how bad things have gotten here. The truth won't come from our government or mainstream media any time soon I am sorry to report.

[danbaron]

It's interesting, as time goes on we see more and more that the truth about incidents like this one, doesn't just matter for the country in which they occur, it matters for the entire world.

More and more it becomes that we are all connected, hopefully that is a good sign.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/08/national-archive-keeps-bulk-of-911-commission-report-sealed/

[danbaron]

Of course, concerning 9/11, the proof would be, "in the pudding".

In science, when one researcher claims results from a particular experiment, if the results are significant, then, other researchers try to reproduce the results by doing their own similar experiments.

To me, the best way (but, it will never happen) to determine if 9/11 was or was not a scam, would be to build 1000 exact replicas of one of the twin towers, and crash one of the same Boeing type jets used on 9/11, into each of them. Then, all you would have to do is to wait and see what happened in each case.

If in none of the 1000 experiments, the replica tower collapsed, who would pay any attention to those who continued to insist that 9/11 happened as it is officially purported to have happened?

I bet you could do approximately the same thing using computer simulations. But, you would have to enlist an unbiased group of physicists, mathematicians, and engineers. Because, by changing parameters, you can get any result you want. The trick is to get smart knowledgeable people who want to use parameters that were most likely to have existed during the actual event. You would vary the parameters, but only within the ranges of the possible - and, for sure, deniers would argue forever about what the ranges of the possible, were.

That is why, 1000 physical experiments would be by far the most convincing. In that case, it would be much harder to successfully argue that the replications were substantially different from the two actual events.

[danbaron]

Lots and lots of questions from many intelligent citizens, but ignorance (the government ignores the questions) from the government.

So, in my opinion, most likely the government cannot answer the questions without incriminating itself.

Minimally, it demonstrates that it has no respect for its citizens - especially when it duplicitously pretends that only crazy people or traitors would ask such questions.

It doesn't matter if the president is a Democrat.

Obama wouldn't go near investigating 9/11, with a 10 foot pole.

Democrat or Republican, the U.S. government is basically a monolith.

I'll say it again, minimally, the government demonstrates that it has no respect for its citizens.

I think there are inverse relationships between how much information a government, "classifies", and, 1) how much respect it has for its citizens, 2) how honest it is.

When government officials are permitted access to information, and citizens are not, to me it means the government considers the citizens to be untrustworthy, and/or, it knows the citizens would rebel if they knew the information. (And, in either case, the government has overstepped its function, since, by definition, it is the employee, and the citizens are the employer.)

http://www.911proof.com/ (http://www.911proof.com/)

[Charles Pegge]

conspiracy theory


A darkly humorous view from boilingfrogspost.com


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98&feature=player_embedded

[danbaron]

I watched it and think it is stone cold accurate, angering, and frustrating.

The amazing thing is that it doesn't matter.

The U.S. government cannot be shamed, and approximately 99% of the people apparently don't care at all.

I think for the vast majority of people, the truth doesn't matter - all that matters is the official mythology.

For them, the truth is too disturbing, too messy.

They prefer their information to first be homogenized, pasteurized, sanitized, and deodorized.

Then, they and everyone they know pretend it is true.

And, before long, they believe it is true.

They want to live their lives, in an insulated Disney world.

And for authoritarians, the most important thing is that their leader (father, government, etc.) exhibits strength.

Let me know if you think they care if he is a criminal, liar, cheat, etc.

And, for what percentage of people, is anything more important than making their lives as pleasant as possible?

[danbaron]

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-09-theory-collapse-twin-towers.html

I don't see anything wrong with this possibility, so far.

But, if it is correct, to me it means, that all of the official 9/11 engineering investigations were b.s.

There is so much that stinks concerning 9/11, that now, I assume when the federal government makes any official statement, it is false.

(And by the way, there was no jetliner in WTC 7, to melt, react with water, and explode, correct?)

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How about Oklahoma City?

One fertilizer bomb?

Seriously?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

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Is it a natural law that the probability a government will perpetrate false-flag operations, is proportional to the government's size?